This stupid bullshit will continue until Women decide to make it stop.

[kidcolin]

Beyond that, we start to talk skill, and it gets blurry, but I bet he's better there, too, as long as you compare skill position to skill position. Period. End of story.

It isn't blurry. We have plenty of data. Despite playing with a smaller ball, less minutes both per game and far fewer games per season (less fatigue), a shorter 3pt line, and attempting fewer 3s per game (relevant and I can explain if needed), the league average wnba 3pt% is ~32-33%, and in the NBA it's ~35-36%. 2pt% differences are similar, but that's a little harder to suss out since the men can dunk.

Wnba ft% is actually higher, pretty close to a league avg of 80% which is phenomenal. In the NBA it's 77ish%. They shoot about the same amount when adjusted for minutes. The smaller ball certainly helps here. Another factor is the NBA's % is pushed down a bit since big men tend to be the worst shooters, and they get hacked going for dunks a lot.

Regardless, by and large, the men are better skill wise, including shooting, ball handling, and passing. Side note: people would be blown away if they ever played basketball with the worst players in the NBA. The funnel gets very, very narrow at the top.

It isn't just a strength issue in athletics. It isn't just hormonal. Our brains are different (though I suppose that could be hormonal driven as these differences widen at puberty, I'm not a biologist). Actual "athletic skill" is worse on average. Men's superiority in hand eye coordination and spatial processing is well documented.

These are basic, simple truths long recognized in the medical and scientific community, not to mention common fucking sense recognized by billions of humans, both men and women, across the past few millenia. That this topic is even becoming a mildly debated issue in 2017 shows a real regression in our society's grasp of reality.

[Brodie Butland]

I don't judge people based on any demographic. I take people on their own individual merits. While this is a social and interpersonal position (I don't agree with allowing unbalanced or unfair competition) there are bigger issues being pushed aside or blamed on transphobia in the case of transgender persons than what division they compete in: MercatorNet: What do the statistics say about transgender mental health?

Fascinating...a group of people traditionally maligned in society tend to have higher rates of depression and other psychiatric disorders than those who aren't. Similar statistics also exist for homosexuals (3x more likely to suffer from depression and social anxiety and 4x more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals).

Please tell me you see the obvious causation problem here--one which the authors of the very study discussed in the article identified but the author of the article casually (deliberately?) omitted.

Whether transgender or transsexual individuals should be treated with the dignity, compassion, and respect of cisgender individuals is a completely separate issue from what divisions transgender/transsexual persons should be competing in for amateur and professional athletics. (The answer would almost certainly be: it depends on the individual case.) We can intelligently discuss the latter without personally attacking people who did nothing to any of us and just want to live their fucking lives.

[DannyP]

And the fools at the UIL have no idea what they have done to themselves and to the programs they administer.

"Combat" sports take this to another level yet. This will really come to a head when someone (probably genetically female) gets seriously hurt because they were matched against an athlete (genetically male) with overwhelming physical advantages.

What really drove this home to me was looking at the novice/int/adv/elite charts for "typical" lifts by weight category. There are plenty of gym bros who can squat more than my skinny ass. Most women, even those outweighing me, who can squat more than me are probably well into the elite tiers of lifting.

I will bet $100 of my hard earned money, and win every time, that, universally, the bottom dweller bench-warmer in the NBA has a higher vertical jump, a faster 40, and is all-around stronger than any woman in the WNBA. Beyond that, we start to talk skill, and it gets blurry, but I bet he's better there, too, as long as you compare skill position to skill position. Period. End of story.

As an age 42 master's athlete, my 200m, 500m, and 1k times were better than (until VERY recently) WR times posted by ANY female athlete in the world, and I'm not particularly athletically gifted.

Is that un-pithy enough for you?



.

I think the equation changes when you're talking team sports. In a five-on-five that single male athlete would have less impact than one-on-one. Similarly, a team of men vs a team of women will magnify any physical advantages.

[marcf]

Karsten Braasch. Kirsten is what his name would be if he switched genders to be the Womens No. 1.

I was typing it on my phone and it autocorrected. But you are correct. It's Karsten.

[jdjohnson50]

This is all reminiscent of Andy Kaufman, the self-proclaimed "Inter-Gender Wrestling Champion of the World," where he would beat women in wrestling matches.

Of course, that was comedy, this is just bizarre.

What wasn't so comedic however was that Kaufman would get women volunteers from his audience and actually beat the shit out of them.

[Eric K]

Fascinating...a group of people traditionally maligned in society tend to have higher rates of depression and other psychiatric disorders than those who aren't. Similar statistics also exist for homosexuals (3x more likely to suffer from depression and social anxiety and 4x more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals).

Please tell me you see the obvious causation problem here--one which the authors of the very study discussed in the article identified but the author of the article casually (deliberately?) omitted.

Whether transgender or transsexual individuals should be treated with the dignity, compassion, and respect of cisgender individuals is a completely separate issue from what divisions transgender/transsexual persons should be competing in for amateur and professional athletics. (The answer would almost certainly be: it depends on the individual case.) We can intelligently discuss the latter without personally attacking people who did nothing to any of us and just want to live their fucking lives.

Also, to the earlier remark dismissing the issue as psychological: perhaps that's an adequate classifier, despite the baggage, but in the same way that an older man with depression brought on by low T has a psychological disorder; hormones obviously impact psychological well-being. If psychological was meant to imply imaginary, then that just seems odd.

On the topic of categorizing people for competition: let the individual federations decide how they do it. If you don't like it then boycott, or better yet, start your own (as SS did with strength lifting). Investigating each lifter's in-utero physiology seems costly, but if that's the standard, that's fine, too. I guess some people will call such federations mean things, but that's not really any different from the other side of the aisle. As it is, it's a little hard to get upset about it since women's leagues are already a way of shielding the competitors from another demographic. None of this will really change whether Brian Shaw is the strongest person in the world; everyone else is just competing for some niche classifier.

[DannyP]

Fascinating...a group of people traditionally maligned in society tend to have higher rates of depression and other psychiatric disorders than those who aren't. Similar statistics also exist for homosexuals (3x more likely to suffer from depression and social anxiety and 4x more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals).

Please tell me you see the obvious causation problem here--one which the authors of the very study discussed in the article identified but the author of the article casually (deliberately?) omitted.

Whether transgender or transsexual individuals should be treated with the dignity, compassion, and respect of cisgender individuals is a completely separate issue from what divisions transgender/transsexual persons should be competing in for amateur and professional athletics. (The answer would almost certainly be: it depends on the individual case.) We can intelligently discuss the latter without personally attacking people who did nothing to any of us and just want to live their fucking lives.

+1. What locker room people should use, and what league they should compete in, are two very different debates, one of which need not account for biology, the other of which must. The first is about putting personal biases (if they exist) aside for the sake of not being a dick about something that doesn't impact you*, while the second is about maintaining a competition environment that is as fair and safe as possible.





*I don't buy the typical "I shouldn't have to look at xxx" argument; plenty of things I'd rather not see in the locker room (old man balls, ball-covering old man guts, odd back hair patterns, ass hair you could braid into a tail) but must endure without complaint.

[David A. Rowe]

Fascinating...a group of people traditionally maligned in society tend to have higher rates of depression and other psychiatric disorders than those who aren't. Similar statistics also exist for homosexuals (3x more likely to suffer from depression and social anxiety and 4x more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals).

Please tell me you see the obvious causation problem here--one which the authors of the very study discussed in the article identified but the author of the article casually (deliberately?) omitted.

Whether transgender or transsexual individuals should be treated with the dignity, compassion, and respect of cisgender individuals is a completely separate issue from what divisions transgender/transsexual persons should be competing in for amateur and professional athletics. (The answer would almost certainly be: it depends on the individual case.) We can intelligently discuss the latter without personally attacking people who did nothing to any of us and just want to live their fucking lives.

That's the problem: I don't believe all "obvious" causation as immediately confirmed. After looking into studies, what I determined was there was no sufficient evidence done to determine, absolutely conclusively, the cause or causes behind this. I can entirely imagine that social pressure and a lack of acceptance can cause issues. Hell, I went through it as a kid. That article was one of the most conclusive (if not the best) I could come up with from a smart phone on my lunch break. Since you have come to a conclusion that I am somehow attacking people... allow me to clarify.

1. I think more study needs to be done without social pressures to make the results suit a narrative. I want as much "truth" in the data as can be determined so that we (as a society) can create treatment strategies and implement EFFECTIVE measures to help people.

2. I am egalitarian. I believe in fair and respectful treatment for everyone. I have friends from every walk of life, but none who are transgendered. I am not averse to them or their life decisions concerning their gender. I do not judge them EXCEPT on their own individual merits. If they're an asshole... then they're an asshole. Being homosexual/transgendered has no bearing on them being an asshole (or not).

3. I am far more concerned about people dying than winning in a competition.

This being said, and I am entirely sincere in this question:
What lead you to believe that I was "personally attacking people who did nothing to any of us and just want to live their fucking lives."?

I certainly don't like to be misunderstood so completely, and am willing to accept the premise that I presented my position poorly.

[Nic Lane]

I will bet $100 of my hard earned money, and win every time, that, universally, the bottom dweller bench-warmer in the NBA has a higher vertical jump, a faster 40, and is all-around stronger than any woman in the WNBA. Beyond that, we start to talk skill, and it gets blurry, but I bet he's better there, too, as long as you compare skill position to skill position. Period. End of story.

As an age 42 master's athlete, my 200m, 500m, and 1k times were better than (until VERY recently) WR times posted by ANY female athlete in the world, and I'm not particularly athletically gifted.

Is that un-pithy enough for you?

It is, that's a good answer. I think I pretty much agree with the strength and vertical jump, quantitative-type assertions. But I also agree that skill gets fuzzy and there I'm not so sure it's black and white. Or, maybe its black and white at each end of the spectrum, but it's gray in the middle. I'm not sure the position-for-position qualifier is relevant either. It may be true, when you impose that criterion, but wouldn't it be moot in the real world? I mean maybe the best female center could be better than the worst male guard. Or maybe not. It still seems like the human population would fall along a spectrum, thereby creating overlap, rather than there's X and Y and never the twain shall meet.

[bisonp]

Reminds me of when Venus and Serena Williams got cocky in the 90s and said they could beat any man ranked below 200. Kirsten Braasch mopped the floor with both of them in one afternoon.

This video is fun, too: CrossFit Girl Arm Wrestles Scrawny Man! (@Courtneyscoffs vs @NotGayJared) - YouTube

I never knew that about the Williams'. I am surprised that dude won the arm wrestling, genetics or not he was a lot scrawnier than her.

Reminds me of when people were claiming Ronda Rousey could compete in the men's division.