This stupid bullshit will continue until Women decide to make it stop.

[George Christiansen]

Right now, these issues are fundamentally coupled. People who are against rights for transgendered individuals in general are using the "common sense" issue of competitive fairness in sports as a way of attacking transgendered individuals in general.

So glad that to find out that all trans people have the same agenda and that being against any one part of it make me anti-trans.

Are the trans-people who are against such things just Uncle Tom's or is has the trans-agenda come up with their own official orthodox term?

As long as this issue is coupled to a general anti-trans agenda, it won't be seen as an honest effort to maintain competitive fairness. Maybe when women feel that transgendered individuals are no longer under heavy political attack, they'll be more inclined to detach this issue from LGBTQ rights in general.

Glad to learn that all women share the same brain too. Because apparently they are all on board, except the ones who are not, but probably don't count...for some reason.

My favorite part is the "we refuse to take you seriously until you give into our agenda part. That part sounds fair and reasonable.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what I think, and it doesn't matter what you think unless you're a woman who competes against them.

It matters what fans think.

Sure maybe only family members come to powerlifting meets, but a lot of sports actually have fans. Fans that fund the sports and give the platform to the athletes. These fans matter quite a bit to the success of the sport. Ticket sales and child initiation into sports in the first place matters. If people won't watch or let their kids compete because they don't think that it is fair or even because they think it is gross or immoral or whatever then sports will suffer.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Sorry for being unclear. Yes, the hormone program you describe is unfair. My point is that it's likewise unfair that some women are raised lifting and being fed on beef and milk, while others ate rice.

Sports are inherently unfair, since more people lose than win -- at least now. This is really a stupid place to go.

[QUOTE=George Christiansen;1511489]It matters what fans think.

Then ESPN/SI has their work cut out for them. My impression from some of these responses is that it's already half done.

[Steve Hill]

Sorry for being unclear. Yes, the hormone program you describe is unfair. My point is that it's likewise unfair that some women are raised lifting and being fed on beef and milk, while others ate rice.

Rules draw lines, and no line is perfectly fair in every sense of the word, and people will always try to exploit the imperfections. I'm ok with that, just like every soccer and NE Pats fan is ok with flopping and deflated footballs/tapped radios. Otherwise Lamar Gant isn't really great until he gets his arms shortened and back straightened.

Saying it's OK for a male to transition to female, and then compete with females, is not an exploitation. It is a denial of the reality that it is a better (athletically) version of the scenario that I proposed.

Additional, not being able to eat beef, or milk, or oats, etc rice is curable. As a female, it is somewhat unrealistic to ask to be re-born as a male, with testes and a penis. Your Lamar Gant example being perfectly illustrative of this.

[George Christiansen]

Then ESPN/SI has their work cut out for them. My impression from some of these responses is that it's already half done.

I think we might be suprised. Even though they all acted as if they had their own balls removed over the Jenner thing, I think a lot of people have finally realized that they will continue to be steamrolled in every arena if they just mind their own business like most of us want to.

The previous inability/unwillingness to be a bit louder about things has been the huge weakness in truly conservative politics (the Christian right has always had big mouths though), but I think it has largely been cured by the last eight years and what "medicine" Barry didn't administer, Trump likely will.

[tfranc]

There are so many reasons the Left will never let go of this. For one thing, it will go against their argument that women are as physiologically strong as men, which is so absurd in this instance that it's hard to fathom. They will call sane claims that MTF competitors have an unfair advantage as oppressive discrimination. The only thing that will make most of them shut up for good is scientifically quantifying all the things that make MTF's competing with females obviously insane. But that will never happen, so better break out the ear plugs.

[MattWI]

I was curious what political feminists thought about this and found that they seem to be divided on the topic.

However, I did find this quote from the British lesbian feminist Julie Bindle that was worth sharing.

"I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s [jeans] does not make you a man."

[Crom]

There are so many reasons the Left will never let go of this. For one thing, it will go against their argument that women are as physiologically strong as men, which is so absurd in this instance that it's hard to fathom.

Reiterating one of the fundamental axioms of Liberalism: All persons are created equal. So the mere fact that all persons are obviously not equal is PROOF-POSITIVE that the less successful group has been cheated or exploited.
By logical extension, this means that the more successful group must be evil, or at least the willing beneficiaries of evil, because cheating and exploiting others is evil...right ?
Shouting down, insulting, and all forms of "reverse-discrimination" against the successful group is therefore justified...because they are evil...right ?
You don't discuss things with evil. You just destroy evil...because they deserve it.

This rule can be applied to virtually every liberal/conservative split on every issue.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I was curious what political feminists thought about this and found that they seem to be divided on the topic.

However, I did find this quote from the British lesbian feminist Julie Bindle that was worth sharing.

"I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s [jeans] does not make you a man."

She seems to have an excellent grasp of the situation.

[cph]

So glad that to find out that all trans people have the same agenda and that being against any one part of it make me anti-trans.

Are the trans-people who are against such things just Uncle Tom's or is has the trans-agenda come up with their own official orthodox term?



Glad to learn that all women share the same brain too. Because apparently they are all on board, except the ones who are not, but probably don't count...for some reason.

My favorite part is the "we refuse to take you seriously until you give into our agenda part. That part sounds fair and reasonable.

I never spoke of a "trans agenda," only an "anti-trans agenda." But I think it's fair to say that if there is something that all trans people believe in, it's that they should be accepted as equal human beings—as Brodie put it, to be "treated with the dignity, compassion, and respect [by] cisgender individuals." If someone believes that transgendered individuals shouldn't be treated as equal to cisgendered people, it's unlikely they also think that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's divisions. From a person with these beliefs, an argument that trans women should not be allowed to compete in women's divisions comes across as insincere—not made solely in the interests of the sport and its competitors.

Of course there are people—cis women and transgendered individuals included—who believe in LGBTQ equality, but also that trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports. However some of these people believe equality is a much more important issue than trans women in sports.

[DoctorWho]

There are two issues that are being lumped together. First, the general acceptance of transgender people and, second, what category that they can play sports in. For the second, why not have the transgender person always compete with the men?

In the weightlifting case (M to F) and the wrestling case (F to M with lots of testosterone) the person got an advantage and killed the competition. Regardless what you think about transgender rights, that seems like an objectively unfair outcome.