Health & Longevity: Why is Movement/Mobility/Even Stretching ignored?

[Satch12879]

sorry to bring this up again but I think the argument got to mobility oriented rather than movement orientated. the OP touched on Ido Portal who has some incredible feats of strength and movement and often makes the argument of 'what are we training for?' and this to me is something I find myself asking a lot. I fully get the argument of general movements are most applicable to other movements i.e. squats, deads, press etc but if I am just your average guy, not competing in any sport - what am I training for? to get strong? well, if that's the case - strong for what? This then seems to open up the relative vs. absolute strength debate, what's the point of being strong if you can't move your own body is something that does resonate with me.

I guess what I am trying to get at is two things: how do we then utilize this strength in a broader sense of movement, but I'd also love to get some of the guys opinions on here on what are we training for if we aren't part of a sport?

You're new around here, aren't you?

[Polishdude20]

sorry to bring this up again but I think the argument got to mobility orientated rather than movement orientated. the OP touched on Ido Portal who has some incredible feats of strength and movement and often makes the argument of 'what are we training for?' and this to me is something I find myself asking a lot. I fully get the argument of general movements are most applicable to other movements i.e. squats, deads, press etc but if I am just your average guy, not competing in any sport - what am I training for? to get strong? well, if that's the case - strong for what? This then seems to open up the relative vs. absolute strength debate, what's the point of being strong if you can't move your own body is something that does resonate with me.

I guess what I am trying to get at is two things: how do we then utilise this strength in a broader sense of movement, but I'd also love to get some of the guys opinions on here on what are we training for if we aren't part of a sport?

We're training for life in general. The more muscle mass you acrue now, the easier it will be to keep it later on in life. If you continue to strength train you will more easily avoid life threatening slips and falls in your elderly years. You can be as spry in your 70's as you were in your 40's.

[JohnStrangeway]

Strength is one part of the equation but there must be something else, right? Just look at the results from the extremes of the different thinking mentalities. Mobility and movement is one big part it seems to me for being a healthy, strong and optimal human and I'm interested if you disagree and why. Ido Portal is a great example of someone who is at the extreme of this kind of thinking, and he is the complete opposite of what becomes the result of an individual at the extreme in strength training.

Why aren't we incorporating this sort of thinking and action into our training Rip?

I agree with you that strength is one part of the equation, not with your generalization though.

I know you have been beaten to death on your statement but really, the best of the best have to squat, deadlift and bench through a range of motion. If they can squat, how are they immobile? They move a ton of weight, if they were clumsy there would not be enough of them to hold competitions for, they would be injured or dead. You don't clumsily bench 550.

Being a powerlifter does not make you stiff, immobile and clumsy. Begin stiff, immobile and clumsy makes you stiff, immobile and clumsy.

As a martial artist and former strongman I trained both and had no issues. I assume by 'movement' you mean ROM, if you do movements correctly, you will gain/maintain ROM. If you train kicking techniques often(correctly), there is no need for stretching. You remind me of such old statements as "I don't want to get bulky, it will make me slow" and "I'm a woman, I don't want to lift weights and get all big".

Really it is not Mark's burden, it's yours/ours. If you are tight, do something about it. If you feel you are not agile, do something about it. Besides, "Starting mobility agility nutrition breathing crochet strength" would be too long, I can't help it.

[Austin Baraki]

This then seems to open up the relative vs. absolute strength debate, what's the point of being strong if you can't move your own body is something that does resonate with me.

I guess what I am trying to get at is two things: how do we then utilise this strength in a broader sense of movement, but I'd also love to get some of the guys opinions on here on what are we training for if we aren't part of a sport?

There are several problems here. Of note:

1) This again presumes that getting stronger somehow inhibits your body from moving, which is not true. People who ACTUALLY have difficulty moving their bodies (not just these pseudo-"restrictions" diagnosed by movement gurus) always move better if they get stronger, to the extent that they can train.

2) This is based on a completely arbitrary definition of what range of movement is "normal," "optimal," or "functional".

My older, frail trainees don't need to be able to do sexy one-armed handstands, pistol squats, or parkour. They need to be able to get up off the toilet and carry their groceries. Because that's functional. And if the artsy movements of Ido Portal et al. resonate with you, you are welcome to practice their methods all you want -- but don't confuse the two.

I was recently involved in a similar discussion recently where someone argued, and I quote:

... Or becoming so strong in the sagital [sic] plane that you lose your capacity to move laterally and rotationally.

What the hell does this even mean? Is there anyone on earth who has gotten so damn strong that they can't "move laterally" or turn around? Or -- as I hope you realize -- is that argument based on a completely arbitrary definition of what "optimal" lateral or rotational movement is?

[stef]

1) This again presumes that getting stronger somehow inhibits your body from moving, which is not true. People who ACTUALLY have difficulty moving their bodies (not just these pseudo-"restrictions" diagnosed by movement gurus) always move better if they get stronger, to the extent that they can train.

I think this arises from the idea that the body has a fixed amount of uses/abilities that has to be divided up, rather than recognizing that training develops qualities and those qualities depend on each other for expression and growth, with strength being fundamental to all of them.

Zero-sum assumptions.

[Sean Herbison]

First, "orientated" is not a word in the English language.

It depends, actually. Is he British?

well, if that's the case - strong for what? This then seems to open up the relative vs. absolute strength debate, what's the point of being strong if you can't move your own body is something that does resonate with me.

Are you referring to bodyweight here, or something else? Because yes, you'll generally not want to be as heavy if you're interested in things like tricking or gymnastics as opposed to strength sports. But if it's something else, I'm not sure what you're going for with this.

[I_iz_a_fatass]

I was recently involved in a similar discussion recently where someone argued, and I quote:

... Or becoming so strong in the sagital [sic] plane that you lose your capacity to move laterally and rotationally.

What the hell does this even mean?

It means you can discount anything they claim about movement because they're an idiot.

[George Christiansen]

I think this arises from the idea that the body has a fixed amount of uses/abilities that has to be divided up, rather than recognizing that training develops qualities and those qualities depend on each other for expression and growth, with strength being fundamental to all of them.

Zero-sum assumptions.

This explains the think behind numerous conclusions across a myriad of fields.

I think part of the confusion is also partially based on seeing people who get so large that they essentially cannot get around themselves to demonstrate the range of motion they actually have. Just because someone is so fat that their belly prevents them from tying their own shoes or someone's lats are so big that they actually get in the way doesn't mean that the limiting factor is the muscles ability to cover a particular range of motion any more than chaining a dog up demonstrate that the dog somehow has no ability to run.

[John Janecek]

This amazes me that this is still talked about.

I've been strength coaching for 27 years now and I've never had an athlete stretch before or after lifting. I've seen some really strong HS kids in my time (350 clean, 255 snatch, 500 front squat, 675 back squat, several 600+ DL) that where very flexible and never had problems with injuries or mobility..?

I've been at my current strength coaching position for six years now and I still remember after my first year the head coach asking me what I did special with all the fat boys (off line) cause they were able to get into their stance so much better. I replied "they squat"... No flexibility isues here and almost zero shoulder/hamstring problems.. I have several 300lb lineman who can sit in a full squat position that have never done a stretch for it..

If stretching, mobility work, and all that other silly bullshit worked and gave me an advantage as a strength coach I would have added it in years ago..

[Brodie Butland]

I guess what I am trying to get at is two things: how do we then utilise this strength in a broader sense of movement, but I'd also love to get some of the guys opinions on here on what are we training for if we aren't part of a sport?

I have two dogs, one of which is 80 lbs. If I'm going somewhere and the dog doesn't want to get into the back of a car, I have to lift him into it. You ever tried lifting an 80 lbs living creature that doesn't want to be picked up? Most people would say it's hard--my wife and parents certainly can't do it. I think it's easy, and I've never been injured doing it (and I have to do it at least once every two weeks).

I also live in Cleveland. At least once every winter we get more than a foot of snow overnight. That snow has to be removed from the driveway so I can get to work--we're not pussies in Cleveland, so we don't allow something minor like a foot of snow to interfere with our daily lives. My driveway is about 80 feet long, which means I have to remove over 1,000 cubic feet of snow by shovel at least once a year. That doesn't include all the other snowfalls we get, which I also have to clear out. During the last three years or so, this has become a fairly easy task that I can do in about 20 minutes.

Before my son was born, we had a lot of furniture delivered to the house. One of them was in a box over 100 lbs. The postal service helpfully left it at our back door, whereas our son's nursery is on the second floor of the house that requires going up two narrow stairwells. This box was very awkwardly shaped, so it couldn't easily be bear-hugged or carried, and the packaging wasn't strong enough to be used as a handle. I got it upstairs on my own, after a bit of cursing.

Two years ago my car was in the shop and my wife was gone with the other. I had to take the 80 lbs dog to get a bath at the pet store about a half mile away. I also needed to get him dog food, which comes in 40 lbs bags. After bathing, I purchased a bag of food, slung it over my shoulder, and walked the half mile back home with the dog's leash in one hand and the bag of dog food in the other. Note that my large dog is a terrible walker...he tugs at the leash a lot if he sees other dogs, people, or animals, or if he smells interesting things in others' lawns.

These aren't anything special to my life...they're pretty much everyday occurrences for millions of people across the country. And yet they're things that my running or yogi friends either cannot do, or cannot do without substantial difficulty (or injury in some cases). I can do them without issue...and I think the reason is because unlike them, I squat over 400.

So, to answer your question...I believe we're all playing a sport known as life. And that's what I train for...to make my life easier, and to ensure that I don't have to call for help or risk injury or be gassed whenever difficult physical labor is required.

Also, for what it's worth...I've never had trouble moving as a result of getting stronger. To the contrary, my flexibility has significantly improved ever since I started squatting and deadlifting heavy. True, I can't touch my foot to the back of my head or similar parlor tricks like I used to be able to do in middle school...but then again I've never really had a need for doing so, aside from amusing my relatives, and I'm pretty sure I would have lost that ability simply by getting older anyways.