Health & Longevity: Why is Movement/Mobility/Even Stretching ignored?

[SSDino]

I have been reading your articles and listening to the podcast. It's great information, thanks for sharing your ideas coach. You have definitely changed my mindset and thoughts about training altogethor. But of course questions arise and I'm sorry if it has been asked before: it probably has. You wrote an article of time wasters in the gym and why stretching is a waste of time. As always, and you say this as well common sense should be prioritized first. I look at powerlifters, the best of the best to see what results strength training has in its extreme. And damn are they strong: but at the same time they are stiff, immobile and honestly clumsy. As an martial artist, I value movement and being fluid in my movements (Got to). This is my bias, but I also have a belief that it is extremely important for health and longevity for everybody.

Strength is one part of the equation but there must be something else, right? Just look at the results from the extremes of the different thinking mentalities. Mobility and movement is one big part it seems to me for being a healthy, strong and optimal human and I'm interested if you disagree and why. Ido Portal is a great example of someone who is at the extreme of this kind of thinking, and he is the complete opposite of what becomes the result of an individual at the extreme in strength training.

Why aren't we incorporating this sort of thinking and action into our training Rip?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I look at powerlifters, the best of the best to see what results strength training has in its extreme. And damn are they strong: but at the same time they are stiff, immobile and honestly clumsy. As an martial artist, I value movement and being fluid in my movements (Got to). This is my bias, but I also have a belief that it is extremely important for health and longevity for everybody.

How many powerlifters do you know personally?

[Mark E. Hurling]

As an martial artist, I value movement and being fluid in my movements (Got to).

How high do you think you need to kick, and how much external rotation do you think you need to make a back fist or rear elbow or reverse hammer fist strike?

Or is this really about Cirque de Soleil or crouching tiger, hidden dragon mobility that the entertainment folk and strength resistant Senseis you practice under have convinced you that they think you need?

[Austin Baraki]

I look at powerlifters, the best of the best to see what results strength training has in its extreme. And damn are they strong: but at the same time they are stiff, immobile and honestly clumsy.

This is not an entirely accurate assessment, but regardless of sport, elite-level competitors did not get there in pursuit of "general health". Additionally, we are not trying to turn our typical trainees into elite superheavyweight competitive powerlifters.

As an martial artist, I value movement and being fluid in my movements (Got to). This is my bias, but I also have a belief that it is extremely important for health and longevity for everybody.

What does it mean to "value movement"?

You are welcome to hold whatever belief you'd like, but you'll need to explain a bit more and define "health" and "longevity" in order to support it. It appears you're suggesting that a lack of "movement fluidity" actually compromises longevity, which is a claim that certainly needs some supporting reasoning and/or evidence.

Strength is one part of the equation but there must be something else, right? Just look at the results from the extremes of the different thinking mentalities. Mobility and movement is one big part it seems to me for being a healthy, strong and optimal human and I'm interested if you disagree and why. Ido Portal is a great example of someone who is at the extreme of this kind of thinking, and he is the complete opposite of what becomes the result of an individual at the extreme in strength training.

What does it mean to be an "optimal human"?

We fully recognize that strength is not the only part of the equation. BUT we also recognize that in the absence of strength, none of the other physical characteristics can be fully expressed. So we train for strength first, and if someone wants to then use that strength for, say, martial arts... then they can practice martial arts.

[Mark Rippetoe]

What does it mean to "value movement"?

I think it means you either are or were a CrossFitter.

[SSDino]

I know no powerlifters personally Mark, why do you ask? I'm only judging their movements from what I can see. Am I coming with a controversial statement saying that powerlifters are generally not particularly mobile? Please correct me if that's the case but from my understanding it's not.

Hurling I believe it's more complex than simply kicking; it's spontaneous moving when grappling without restrictions due to immobility, putting people in submissions which require quite a lot of mobility but to go back to your point I must ask you a counter question: do you believe the "typical" powerlifter can perform a headkick towards someone in their own height? Based on my intuition, which is wrong sometimes I admit it, that won't be the norm.

No, I don't know or give two shits about CrossFit Mark. I'm your side, so there is no need to bracket nobody.

That's true Austin, it is to the extreme side and I would assume being stiff makes them better at their purpose as an elite level athlete at this particular sport: squat and deadlift higher numbers. I guess they wouldn't be otherwise? I am not saying everybody that is going to train using the starting strength method will become "stiff" and "immobile". There might be a type of middle ground where you aren't sacrificing too much mobility but gaining the advantages of becoming strong. I'm open to that, and I hope that's how it is: I am doing the program.. But how do you know that? Experience?

And you got a point Austin, it boils down to a belief. I believe being mobile brings you health advantages. I don't have facts to support that. But I can brainstorm, so you become mobile/flexible from doing Yoga I would guess: aren't "normal" people that do Yoga healthier than normal people that don't do anything? I am sure I could find information that mobility matters but I think we both agree that it does play a role. You believe it doesn't play as big of a role as I believe it does and I'm curious what you base that on.

Essentially I agree with you and the method, strength is the foundation. My idea is that mobility and being able to move without restriction (which I believe need to be trained separately than strength training, because as I mentioned at the extreme of powerlifting people are just the opposite of mobile). So I am curious and interested what you Austin believe that should be trained beyond just strength training (Cardio?) because you mentioned there are other aspects as well.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I know no powerlifters personally Mark, why do you ask? I'm only judging their movements from what I can see. Am I coming with a controversial statement saying that powerlifters are generally not particularly mobile? Please correct me if that's the case but from my understanding it's not.

I ask because you don't know what you're talking about. You are apparently a member of the general public who thinks that all powerlifting competitors weigh 320 at 5'8" and can't tie their shoes.

No, I don't know or give two shits about CrossFit Mark. I'm your side, so there is no need to bracket nobody.

Then don't come on the board and post silly bullshit like "I value movement."

[Austin Baraki]

I am not saying everybody that is going to train using the starting strength method will become "stiff" and "immobile". There might be a type of middle ground where you aren't sacrificing too much mobility but gaining the advantages of becoming strong. I'm open to that, and I hope that's how it is: I am doing the program.. But how do you know that? Experience?

Yes, from experience. Strength training does not make you "stiff". Every single person who I've coached who has complained of pre-existing "stiffness" (e.g., most elderly trainees) has noted that their mobility improved with strength training. Additionally, both my health and my "mobility" (which has always been on the higher side, I suppose) have not suffered a bit from achieving a 600 lb squat while doing exactly zero stretching for the past decade.

Have you considered the possibility that elite-level powerlifting selects for "stiff" people, rather than the idea that reaching elite-level powerlifting makes you stiff?

And you got a point Austin, it boils down to a belief. I believe being mobile brings you health advantages. I don't have facts to support that.

You should have just called it there, Dino.

Not only do you not have facts, you don't even have an idea of what specific "health advantages" you're talking about. You're just making up phrases that sound nice, like "optimal human" and "valuing movement".

But I can brainstorm, so you become mobile/flexible from doing Yoga I would guess: aren't "normal" people that do Yoga healthier than normal people that don't do anything?

So your logic is:

1) yoga makes you mobile/flexible (...does it?)
2) people who do yoga are "healthier" than people who don't (...are they?)
3) therefore, being more mobile/flexible makes you healthier.

That is some pretty abysmal reasoning.

I am sure I could find information that mobility matters but I think we both agree that it does play a role. You believe it doesn't play as big of a role as I believe it does and I'm curious what you base that on.

...that mobility matters for what? ...that it plays a role in what? Jesus, Dino. I don't know why you're so sure that we agree. You're the one coming in here making health claims about mobility - so perhaps you should actually go out and find that rock-solid evidence for us.

Essentially I agree with you and the method, strength is the foundation. My idea is that mobility and being able to move without restriction (which I believe need to be trained separately than strength training, because as I mentioned at the extreme of powerlifting people are just the opposite of mobile). So I am curious and interested what you Austin believe that should be trained beyond just strength training (Cardio?) because you mentioned there are other aspects as well.

You are not nearly specific enough in your arguments. You want to know what we think should be trained... for what? We believe that everyone should strength train, and then people are welcome to select their physical characteristic of choice to train beyond that, if they'd like.

[Sean Herbison]

do you believe the "typical" powerlifter can perform a headkick towards someone in their own height? Based on my intuition, which is wrong sometimes I admit it, that won't be the norm.

I don't know how typical I am, but I can, no problem. But even assuming the typical powerlifter can't, so what? Neither can the typical person in general, from my experience. I've never seen anyone go from mobile to immobile by strength training, even if it's specifically for powerlifting. I have seen the opposite though.

But I can brainstorm, so you become mobile/flexible from doing Yoga I would guess: aren't "normal" people that do Yoga healthier than normal people that don't do anything?

Yes, normal people who do yoga are healthier than normal people that don't do anything. That's because yoga counts as something, and something is better than nothing. You could replace yoga with literally any physical activity, and your statement remains true. So while that's not a knock against yoga, it's not a very convincing argument for it either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for mobility work if you've got goals that require it. But I don't see why you think powerlifting will make you "stiff, immobile and honestly clumsy." Sure, if you compare someone who doesn't work through extended ROMs (powerlifter) to someone who does (martial artist), the former will have less mobility, but not to the point where it's an issue.

(As an aside, I'm talking raw or single-ply only. Multi-ply is a different story altogether, and I'd rather leave the SPF out of this.)

[Tiedemies]

I used to do Martial arts as well, and think in the lines of OP. Then, I sparred with a powerlifter. On paper, and looking at the way we trained -- stretches, high kicks, etc -- it might have seemed as though I was faster, I was definitely more mobile. We are about as tall (185cm), but my jumping kick could reach about 250cm, whereas he could reach only about 210 or so. He was of course heavier than me, so we'd be in different weight classes if it came to actual fighting. But be that as it may, I did not stand a chance against him in full-contact. At that time my squat was maybe 210lbs (and his was probably more than 600)

And mind you, this had nothing to do with the fact that he would knock me out; he didn't. But his strength made all the difference. I had to move a lot more; I couldn't block a kick, I had to move out of the way, etc. This means I had to spend a huge amount of energy just not to get hit, compared to a weaker opponent. Not much left for me to counterattack.