Strength and Endurance

[Chris McCarthy]

Not my department.

I'd think that would be something to put numbers to, no?

[TimD]

Speaking of endurance, I often hear it said by Rip and various SSCs that you can get in shape, from an endurance standpoint, in a matter of a few weeks. How is being "in shape" defined? Certainly you can't get a good level of endurance in 2-3 weeks, so what are we talking about?

I'm not going to touch on the flaws of military/LE fitness tests, but I think this applies. The Army Physical Fitness Test requires you to run 2 miles in about 13 min (plus or minus a few seconds depending on age group) to get a maximum score. This is the only endurance standard I will ever have to meet. I usually begin prep four weeks out. I go from zero "endurance" work to running 2-3 days a week: 2 days of <= 400 m intervals and one 2-4 mile run day. I lose 5-10 lbs of muscle in the process. Most strength trainees can max pushups and situps without altering THE PROGRAM. BW, SQ, and DL tend to recover quickly, but BP and PR take a while to build back up and it sucks having to lose progress like this twice per year.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'd think that would be something to put numbers to, no?

Of course it would. But despite the fact that I know that two-a-days produces conditioning sufficient to start the season, and that running the test about 3 times gets you in shape to pass the test, I'm not the guy to do the numbers. Remember the trouble with the strength standards tables? Endurance (and diet, women's clothing, and hockey) are not my areas of interest or expertise. So yes, there could be some quantification here. No, I'm not going to do it.

[sniperfrog]

I'm not going to touch on the flaws of military/LE fitness tests, but I think this applies. The Army Physical Fitness Test requires you to run 2 miles in about 13 min (plus or minus a few seconds depending on age group) to get a maximum score. This is the only endurance standard I will ever have to meet. I usually begin prep four weeks out. I go from zero "endurance" work to running 2-3 days a week: 2 days of <= 400 m intervals and one 2-4 mile run day. I lose 5-10 lbs of muscle in the process. Most strength trainees can max pushups and situps without altering THE PROGRAM. BW, SQ, and DL tend to recover quickly, but BP and PR take a while to build back up and it sucks having to lose progress like this twice per year.

You lose 5-10lbs of muscle in just 4 weeks of running 2-3 times a week?

[Vek]

Long ago (2003), at the age of 26, during a medical-waiver-extended process of applying for USMC OCS, I was asked by the recruiting office to take the USMC PFT with about 2 weeks notice. Bodyweight ~230# at 6'3, strong enough that a couple weeks of focus could probably have yielded a power clean close to 300#. I was not in terrible shape, but I hadn't been running much and was a bit soft. The USMC PFT is 3 miles, with 18:00 being a perfect 100 score, and a point removed every 10 seconds above. Also 100 crunches and 20 dead hang chins for 100 points each. I retooled to focus on running and chins, and pulled down a score of 270 or thereabouts. Missed one chin on a form judgment and ran somewhere under 21:00. Scored more than 50 points higher than the greyhound who ran sub-18:00 but only got 12 chins...

Nobody is going to claim that sub-7:00 minute miles is fast, but by that standard it's fast enough to earn what the recruiters called a "first class PFT", and it exempted me from further obesity eval due to my BW of 228# being way off the USN chart. Later in the month preceding heading off to OCS I scored 287 with all chins and crunches accounted for and a run time of 20:10 at a BW of 220# or so. The faster run time and lower bodyweight could only be explained by playing a couple months of rec league basketball 2 nights per week on top of normal volume lifting with a bit of pullup emphasis. The only time I ever ran 3 miles or more, was running the PFT for recruitment and on OCS entry. Training was all shorter runs: two miles worth of intervals in quarter, half and full mile chunks, occasional 2.5 mile run, etc.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You lose 5-10lbs of muscle in just 4 weeks of running 2-3 times a week?

Easily.

[sniperfrog]

Easily.

Running has never caused me to lose much weight. Maybe I just eat more. My unit ran us about 25 miles a week and I still gained weight.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Perhaps you don't have much muscle mass to lose. Height/weight/age?

[sniperfrog]

Perhaps you don't have much muscle mass to lose. Height/weight/age?

At the time I was in my 20s, I'm 5'7" and went from about 155 to 185.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Dunno. If you went from starving to death to eating enough while running, and you went from a kid to a man during that time, you might have gained weight. But it is normal to lose muscle mass as a result of a lot of running.