How to use the alternative squat grip

[Mark Rippetoe]

Props for fighting against the special snowflake syndrome, but being unable to properly train due to such pain is just not productive and warrants a different course of action, in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it "giving up" if you got your squat up from 225 to 405 and just happened to use a safety bar in the process.

Chris, what's your experience with adding 50% to a squat by using a complete change in squat mechanics? Because that's what you're suggesting here.

[Chris Lippke]

Chris, what's your experience with adding 50% to a squat by using a complete change in squat mechanics? Because that's what you're suggesting here.

I'm certainly not suggesting that it happens instantaneously because of a change from low-bar to high-bar position (in one session), and I hope no one would read it that way. Stress/adaptation and incremental loading still apply.

If you still take issue: I don't have any experience. You're right. The squat mechanics do change as this (based on videos I've seen, mostly of Wolf) puts the bar higher and forces a high-bar squat with the resultant gaze-forward, more-vertical back angle, more-forward knees, more quads/less-hamstrings & adductors. I don't think adding weight to a high-bar squat to that degree is out of the question though and would be happy be proven mistaken. What did Greysteel athlete John C. squat on his first day? What is he squatting now?

What I suggest is that I'd rather one, after having reasonably exhausted his other options, high-bar squat heavier using a crutch than stagnate at a weight because of pain with a low-bar squat and ultimately not continue to train. Reading between the lines of your challenge, yeah, I'm betting there are other factors at play here though and that BuckFifty (at 28 years old) can probably get to a pain-free rack. If he can't do that via the suggestions on this board, the SS videos on the topic, or trial-and-error with respect to grip width, thumbs around, etc., then individualized coaching or a seminar is a fine next step. If that doesn't work, safety bar. If that doesn't work, leg press. If that doesn't work, road cycling and bosu ball.

[Mark Rippetoe]

What I suggest is that I'd rather one, after having reasonably exhausted his other options, high-bar squat heavier using a crutch than stagnate at a weight because of pain with a low-bar squat and ultimately not continue to train.

It is, at times, frustrating to be perceived as so stupid and pig-headed that I would insist on a low-bar squat or nothing at all. Those of you who have been to a seminar: did I leave you with that impression?

[Chris Lippke]

It is, at times, frustrating to be perceived as so stupid and pig-headed that I would insist on a low-bar squat or nothing at all.

(For the record, I don't think that.) It's probably more frustrating to you to have developed (after decades in the business) this understanding of just how incredible the low-bar squat is for building strength only to have assclowns like me suggest modifications to it... on your own board. It's understandable when you get to a point where low-bar squat makes as much sense to you as a spherical Earth and you have flat-Earthers merely existing at all.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Be warned though, Gallagher Rippetoe might come for you (even though he's probably only talking about the manta ray things):
"And those devices that hold the bar on your back or your shoulders for you, well I can't stand to talk about them either. Except to say that anyone who uses them should be beaten with a hammer, out in the parking lot." - excerpt from Strong Enough?

Let's take it as a given that we all hate the SSB and in a perfect world people would hold the bar on their back as we prescribe....but for a small number of trainees with significant limitations in upper extremity mobility, they are the only way to back squat. And yes, people can get stronger with them, and yes, people can do the exercise with something identical to, or very close to, low-bar mechanics.

And if you're reading this, the chances are excellent that this doesn't apply to you, and you should just suck it up and get under a regular bar and get used to it.

AFAIK, Rip has never been ideological about the SSB. It's just a tool. The problem with the SSB isn't that it's very occasionally indicated (see above); the problem is that the vast majority of the time when it's used it's not indicated. Most of the time it's just a cambered manpon on the back of a Special Snowflake who's too delicate and precious to squat without a little pillow between his back and the bar. And yeah...that guy is pathetic.

But sometimes you need the damn thing just to get an inflexible, older or deconditioned trainee under the bar. And then it's useful.

It's better to squat than to not squat.

[Adam Franklin]

It is, at times, frustrating to be perceived as so stupid and pig-headed that I would insist on a low-bar squat or nothing at all. Those of you who have been to a seminar: did I leave you with that impression?

"If you are not squatting, you are not training" was my impression of your opinion on the matter. While low bar is the optimal squat variant, life doesn't always allow for optimal.

[Leah Lutz]

It is, at times, frustrating to be perceived as so stupid and pig-headed that I would insist on a low-bar squat or nothing at all. Those of you who have been to a seminar: did I leave you with that impression?

One day maybe people are going to realize that you can have some strong, vocal positions, spend time teaching people some very important fundamental ideas and STILL be open-minded enough to help people actually figure out what needs to be done rather than just yelling at them to do it ONE way. And then maybe people will stop acting surprised that anyone can associate with people who don't do things EXACTLY the way you do.

It might happen. Or it might not.

[Christopher Button]

It is, at times, frustrating to be perceived as so stupid and pig-headed that I would insist on a low-bar squat or nothing at all. Those of you who have been to a seminar: did I leave you with that impression?

I completely understand; my dogged insistence on low-bar is that the movement feels infinitely more natural and productive to me than any of the other variations -- this despite my shoulder/arm/wrist woes. I think this is in part due to my kyphosis, which makes the more upright-focused squat variants nigh impossible to keep in balance. This might well just be a coaching concern, and I intend to find out for sure whether this is a simple case of "insufficient yelling".

Grip on the squat is a serious bitch. Last year I said "fuck it" and did the novice progression in exactly the way I was supposed to, even though I had just cut from 105kg to 76kg bw (the biggest mistake I've ever made, but that's another forum post). First month in and everything was going great. I was already at 86kg bw from 3 months of premature TM and gained 1kg bw per week; my squat went from 87.5kg to 115kg sets across in the first month. But I lifted in a different gym the penultimate workout of that month and had to squat with different bars. In commercial gyms, the bars don't always have the same markings and at the time, the ones I was used to only had the snatch grip markings, not the bench grip ones. So my grip was now narrower by about a hand width and my elbows started screaming bloody murder.

I managed to convince my gym owner to let me bring in my own 28-mm bar which, if anything, provides consistency. As you know, public gyms will happily splash out on all manner of shiny and novel contraptions, to the exclusion of investing in higher quality for the more basic pieces of equipment. It is what it is, but I'm lucky in that regard.

If it's that bad and you've exhausted the methods suggested and the technique critiques from coaches on this forum, one of these might be cheaper than a flight/seminar (assuming that's the only thing you'd want to get out of the seminar):

http://www.roguefitness.com/sb-1-rogue-safety-squat-bar

Props for fighting against the special snowflake syndrome, but being unable to properly train due to such pain is just not productive and warrants a different course of action, in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it "giving up" if you got your squat up from 225 to 405 and just happened to use a safety bar in the process.

Thanks, Chris. It's most certainly not the only thing I'd want from the seminar, but it is paramount, because I need to be able to squat productively. I've considered alternatives: high-bar, "safety bar squat", even bloody front squats. As I mentioned above, low bar as a movement pattern has always worked best for me, but once I obtain some in-person guidance, perhaps an alternative could be viable. After several years, one thing I now know for sure is that I cannot continue to waste time attempting to do this entirely on my own - as Rip mentions at the end of The Novice Effect: Time is precious, my friends, and wasting it is bad because you don't ever get it back.

Thanks to you guys for your comments.

Regards,
Chris #2

[Matt-Panz]

What I suggest is that I'd rather one, after having reasonably exhausted his other options, high-bar squat heavier using a crutch than stagnate at a weight because of pain with a low-bar squat and ultimately not continue to train. Reading between the lines of your challenge, yeah, I'm betting there are other factors at play here though and that BuckFifty (at 28 years old) can probably get to a pain-free rack.

You can handle heavier loads with the low bar squat compared to the high bar squat. Obviously if you can't squat 225 with low bar there's something seriously wrong.

To suggest someone who low bar squats less than 225 at the ripe age of 28, to take on high bar squat to reach 400 pounds, is ridiculous.

People 80+ years old with arthritis are able to low bar squat with no pain it doesn't make sense that a 28 year old man can't do it -- something is seriously wrong, probably not extending his back or maybe mental issues (for example not being aggressive enough under the bar).

It's odd to me that someone could be intelligent enough to appreciate strength training and at the same time not understand the material in the books and website.

[Sean Herbison]

Austin Baraki's wife, I just saw, squatted 315 pounds. She is not a large women at all.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your point, but using Loraine for an example of anything in regards to lifting is not the most relevant discussion. It would be like using Jesse Norris as an example. They're both exceptional lifters, and they're both very definitely outliers.