Men's Engagement Manager?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Greedy Carparations (as pronounced by the idiot Jim Hightower) are obviously the problem here, not greedy universities.

[Viola]

I have heard this moaning about university graduates not being useful for years. It has maybe gotten worse because technological advances mean there is a lot more to know before you can be useful. But it is completely normal to have to have on-the-job training before you are useful, even after getting a university degree.

Up here in Canuckistan, engineering graduates who want to work as an engineer have to follow a 3-5 year apprenticeship before earning their professional engineer status. And you can’t call yourself an engineer unless you go through the process. Engineers-in-training need to write regular reports to their mentor (who has to be a professional engineer), and their mentor has to write a final recommendation to the provincial engineering society before the engineer gets her “stamp”. So, this is similar to an apprenticeship model.

I graduated 25 years ago as a mechanical engineer and didn’t know anything directly useful for the job market then either. Mechanical engineering is a pretty broad field – it would be hard to turn out engineers that can do anything useful right away unless you specialize their education within the 4 years of study. I don’t know anything about thread tolerances or machining nor do I get my hands dirty on car engines just for fun. But I have worked in jobs where I had to know about detonations versus deflagrations, statistical analysis of experimental data, industrial and specialty ventilation systems, pressure piping design, and fire code and building code analysis and compliance. I have changed jobs twice and had to re-educate myself practically from scratch each time. My engineering degree helped give me the confidence that I was smart enough to do it – plus some basic background science knowledge. But not much more. You have to expect to be learning continuously over your entire career. A university degree is not a one-time ticket to job heaven.

[Mark Rippetoe]

A university degree is not a one-time ticket to job heaven.

And no one in this thread has said that it is, or that it should be. Everybody expects to learn the job once they're hired. The issue is the level to which graduates are prepared to do so by the modern university environment -- the environment that is more concerned with hiring a Men's Engagement Manager than graduating well-prepared engineering students. You graduated 25 years ago under a completely different set of expectations than a kid does now. I think you know this, and I also think that no one is being served well by an unrealistic defense of the problems that exist in higher education today.

[UberBabs]

Law school certainly did not teach me how to actually practice law, but does teach an approach to thinking, shows you know how to write persuasively and have discipline. And you have an opportunity to network and make connections that will be useful later. Given that my school had students from across the U.S. and international there was no instruction on any particular jurisdiction's law. You learn that in your bar review course. I will say that continuing education requirements in law are a scam. You learn by doing. An interesting development over the last few years is that many law firms won't hire and/or bill out first and/or second year lawyers straight out of school. You need experience with the US Attorney's office, a DA or judicial clerkship.

[Pluripotent]

Another cry from white males on how white males are under attack; perhaps this reaction is identical to the SJW position from the other side?

Are you on the right thread? I think you are lost.

[Viola]

And no one in this thread has said that it is, or that it should be. Everybody expects to learn the job once they're hired. The issue is the level to which graduates are prepared to do so by the modern university environment -- the environment that is more concerned with hiring a Men's Engagement Manager than graduating well-prepared engineering students. You graduated 25 years ago under a completely different set of expectations than a kid does now. I think you know this, and I also think that no one is being served well by an unrealistic defense of the problems that exist in higher education today.

Not sure if you are implying that I am presenting an unrealistic defense of the problems of higher education, or are commenting on the thread in general. I was responding to those complaining about useless new graduates, and those worried about having to retrain if they lose their first job.

But I agree that the Men's engagement Manager is a ridiculous job. My kids are approaching university age. If I luck out, at least one of them will enter a trade. Trade schools are not immune to this sort of thing either though.

[Blackjack]

Princeton is pretty good at teaching engineering though.

[aurelius]

I have heard this moaning about university graduates not being useful for years. It has maybe gotten worse because technological advances mean there is a lot more to know before you can be useful. But it is completely normal to have to have on-the-job training before you are useful, even after getting a university degree.

Up here in Canuckistan, engineering graduates who want to work as an engineer have to follow a 3-5 year apprenticeship before earning their professional engineer status. And you can’t call yourself an engineer unless you go through the process. Engineers-in-training need to write regular reports to their mentor (who has to be a professional engineer), and their mentor has to write a final recommendation to the provincial engineering society before the engineer gets her “stamp”. So, this is similar to an apprenticeship model.

I graduated 25 years ago as a mechanical engineer and didn’t know anything directly useful for the job market then either. Mechanical engineering is a pretty broad field – it would be hard to turn out engineers that can do anything useful right away unless you specialize their education within the 4 years of study. I don’t know anything about thread tolerances or machining nor do I get my hands dirty on car engines just for fun. But I have worked in jobs where I had to know about detonations versus deflagrations, statistical analysis of experimental data, industrial and specialty ventilation systems, pressure piping design, and fire code and building code analysis and compliance. I have changed jobs twice and had to re-educate myself practically from scratch each time. My engineering degree helped give me the confidence that I was smart enough to do it – plus some basic background science knowledge. But not much more. You have to expect to be learning continuously over your entire career. A university degree is not a one-time ticket to job heaven.

I am a civil engineer and have had a similar experience. When the company I work for as a manger hires a new grad, we expect a minimum of 6 months before we start making money off of them. And it takes around 3-4 years before a civil engineer has been exposed to basic skill set required by the industry. After a decade, I have specialized in my career. And am no longer capable to use the new tools that are standard in the industry.

University education is not vocational. It never has been. I don't know why that is now the expectation. Especially as the tools and skill sets required by industry are rapidly changing. It would seem getting a vocational education would be a bad investment. A more general education that can be applied to acquire new skill sets seems the more intelligent approach.

[Mark Rippetoe]

University education is not vocational. It never has been. I don't know why that is now the expectation.

We understand. We have university educations. We know their strengths and their limitations. We are talking about this: https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/34858/

and its adverse impact upon both the vocational and non-vocational aspects of the university experience in 2017.

[aurelius]

We understand. We have university educations. We know their strengths and their limitations. We are talking about this: https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/34858/

and its adverse impact upon both the vocational and non-vocational aspects of the university experience in 2017.

Well that is a lil' bit funny. I'm trying to imagine the culture of Princeton as Billy Bob's around closing time. Not seeing it.