Fast progression a potential problem?

[Satch12879]

I hear you. I have read this article and every single article I have found Rip write on the issue and watched every squat and grip video he has made. At the risk of sounding like I have "special snowflake" syndrome, my issue was flexibility and not simply form (like elbow location or holding bar too low). At the start of this year I could barely reach past my knees while standing and now I am finally within a foot of the ground. In January I could barely get my hands far enough back to comfortably High bar squat. No joke! I could get into the low bar position only after a lot of stretching and withstanding the uncomfortable pain during the squat. I stuck through it and after months of doing it and doing shoulder disconnects every day, I can finally get into the LBBS position with only mild discomfort. I'm getting there. But there has been a lot of pain involved to get there. This of course is not the programs or it's fast progression's fault.

Maybe working on terrible flexibility and doing SS at the same time is too much for the joints/ligaments/tendons (recovery wise) and thats why I had the issues. I don't know. Hence my thread.

No, it was form as Tom C pointed out to you in this thread:

http://startingstrength.com/resource...rist-pain.html

Your tendons, ligaments, and joints will develop along with your musculature. They have to. How do you think you acquired any semblance of prior strength "in your muscles" with out also having the connective tissue around them also developing?

And 45 minutes is not a big distance away. You're not going every workout. People drive for several hours to get coaching. I mean, not special snowflake, really?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Right. All that shit. To your question: no, you can't get strong too fast.

[marcf]

I don't know, man. I gave you my experience in the post above. And I don't think NSAIDs are "proven to delay recovery." Where's the proof? I'll just tell you what Rip told me when I was aching all over: you need to get used to being a lifter--take some tylenol and get some sleep.

Unless your form is really fucked up, and you aren't suffering from any disorder/injury, the pain eventually goes away. Maybe it comes back later, or you get injured when the weights get a lot heavier, but all the niggling aches and pains go away with time and little tweaks here and there.

[Royce Nichols]

Second this. 45 minutes is nothing. I'd see a coach every day if it was just 45 minutes

[timelinex]

No, it was form as Tom C pointed out to you in this thread:

http://startingstrength.com/resource...rist-pain.html

Your tendons, ligaments, and joints will develop along with your musculature. They have to. How do you think you acquired any semblance of prior strength "in your muscles" with out also having the connective tissue around them also developing?

And 45 minutes is not a big distance away. You're not going every workout. People drive for several hours to get coaching. I mean, not special snowflake, really?

Form is not the cause for my pains when my problem was not taking advantage of hip drive. It's not like I was squatting with DANGEROUS form. It was just the HBBS movement with LBBS as Tom C pointed out. I am now working on that and most likely will get a SSC couch soon to go through my form for everything else as well.

As for your "they have to" comment..... Tell that to all the steroid users that have joint issues because their musculature grows faster than their connective tissues can handle....This isn't some underground unknown phenomenon. Muscle MOST DEFINITELY heals and grows faster than connective tissue. That's not even the question. It's whether it can handle the growth. For young people it is mostly a yes. I originally had a different experience. It's not a coincidence that almost all thte threads on pain here are about connective tissue issues and not muscle issues.

I don't know, man. I gave you my experience in the post above. And I don't think NSAIDs are "proven to delay recovery." Where's the proof? I'll just tell you what Rip told me when I was aching all over: you need to get used to being a lifter--take some tylenol and get some sleep.

Unless your form is really fucked up, and you aren't suffering from any disorder/injury, the pain eventually goes away. Maybe it comes back later, or you get injured when the weights get a lot heavier, but all the niggling aches and pains go away with time and little tweaks here and there.

If you really want me to go try to find the studies, I will, but I don't want to waste my time. Inflammation is the bodies way to heal injuries. If you take an anti inflammatory, you might be taking away the pain but you are also cutting off the source of nutrients for maximum healing. Things like icing and taking NSAIDS for an injury to heal faster is old disproven medicine. Unfortunately this myth is still prevalent in HS gyms and elsewhere. But this isn't super new knowledge or anything. We learned it in my biomedical engineering classes as well. Stopping inflammation only helps in cases where your bodies acute response is over the top and could actually cause more damage like blowing vessels. On the other hand , I don't know if there are any studies that show just how much it slows healing. I'm guessing it's negligible for the big picture.

Thats all besides the point though. I don't like taking any medication unless absolutely needed. I dont mind soreness or pain. I'm a big boy and I can take it. However I am not a career powerlifter that will sacrifice his body for the sport. I don't want long term damage. Pushing through tendinitis could potentially make it a life long thing instead of a temporary thing. Taking a pain med just masks the pain, which wasn't the problem in the first place. It doesn't fix the issue.

If I am remembering correctly, Rip himself has said something similar about icing and anti-inflammatory meds.

(BTW, Tylonel is a terrible anti inflammatory and is generally only taken for things like this when someone has stomach issues and can't take ibuprofen)

Second this. 45 minutes is nothing. I'd see a coach every day if it was just 45 minutes

I have no doubt that there are more dedicated lifters out there that also have more time. I am dedicated enough to lift 3x a week and eat right, but I have alot of real world responsibilities as well. (As I imagine other people do to). Anyways, it's not an excuse and as I said I will most likely be paying them a visit soon. Whats the point of these forums if we should all just go to a SSC couch. Why not take a plane to see a couch? Many people do. Better yet, move so you are within 45 minutes and then you can go every day! What are you not dedicated enough? Thats right, different people have different priorities. I assume coming on here for help is many peoples first step.


I can see there is not much room for discussion here. I'm already through the phase I was talking about so my question was just to learn and hear about experiences. I guess I shouldn't of even posted this thread because I knew it was not going to be received well and I would get all the same generic answers. I do still appreciate the time taken to respond, so thank you for the responses.

[Mark Rippetoe]

As for your "they have to" comment..... Tell that to all the steroid users that have joint issues because their musculature grows faster than their connective tissues can handle....This isn't some underground unknown phenomenon. Muscle MOST DEFINITELY heals and grows faster than connective tissue. That's not even the question.

Why is a person of your vast experience and expertise bothering to ask us these questions?

[timelinex]

Why is a person of your vast experience and expertise bothering to ask us these questions?

I know the Hard science behind it, through a combination of my studies in Biomedical engineering and online research. Hard sciences are refuted all the time. Since I do not have decades of experience, that is what I am looking to tap into by posting on here.

I get it. You've heard it all and 12,000 questions later on this forum alone, you are sparce with your explanations. Which of the claims in my last post are you having such a big issue with to reply the way you did though:

Do you disagree with the notion that Ice and NSAIDS only treat the pain and do not speed recovery but potentially slow it down?
Do you disagree with the notion that users of steroids have higher prevalence of connective tissue injuries because of the disparity of growth between connective tissue and muscle?
Do you disagree with the notion that people have different priorities and time schedules and can't always take the time to see a couch 45min away when lifting is admittedly not their #1 or #2 priority in life?
Do you disagree with the notion that Tylenol is considered worse than Ibuprofen for muscle pain and inflammation unless you have stomach issues?

I was under the impression that all my claims in that post were relatively accepted science and ideas, but I am always open to a different point of view (as long as it's explained). Hence my thread.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Do you disagree with the notion that Ice and NSAIDS only treat the pain and do not speed recovery but potentially slow it down?

There is no evidence for this. Stopping the Spread of Misinflammation | Jonathon Sullivan

Do you disagree with the notion that users of steroids have higher prevalence of connective tissue injuries because of the disparity of growth between connective tissue and muscle?

There is no evidence for this. At all. There is only the conventional wisdom. Cite your sources.

Do you disagree with the notion that people have different priorities and time schedules and can't always take the time to see a couch 45min away when lifting is admittedly not their #1 or #2 priority in life?

I do not disagree with this, at all. There are, of course, problems associated with doing the lifts incorrectly that may be incorrectly interpreted as being the result of your muscles getting stronger faster than than your connective tissues.

Do you disagree with the notion that Tylenol is considered worse than Ibuprofen for muscle pain and inflammation unless you have stomach issues?

"Considered"? By whom? It works for me, so I "consider" it to work just fine, for me. But I don't take it as an anti-inflammatory, just as an analgesic. Where is this irrefutable canon of factology you seem to revere?

[Chris Lippke]

It does not help that I wakeboard which is hard on the joints as it is.

Don't wakeboard on LP.

Muscle MOST DEFINITELY heals and grows faster than connective tissue. That's not even the question. It's whether it can handle the growth.

Yes, it can.

Inflammation is the bodies way to heal injuries. If you take an anti inflammatory, you might be taking away the pain but you are also cutting off the source of nutrients for maximum healing. Things like icing and taking NSAIDS for an injury to heal faster is old disproven medicine. Unfortunately this myth is still prevalent in HS gyms and elsewhere. But this isn't super new knowledge or anything. We learned it in my biomedical engineering classes as well.

Read this twice:
http://startingstrength.com/articles...n_sullivan.pdf

I have no doubt that there are more dedicated lifters out there that also have more time. I am dedicated enough to lift 3x a week and eat right, but I have alot of real world responsibilities as well. (As I imagine other people do to). Anyways, it's not an excuse and as I said I will most likely be paying them a visit soon. Whats the point of these forums if we should all just go to a SSC couch. Why not take a plane to see a couch? Many people do. Better yet, move so you are within 45 minutes and then you can go every day! What are you not dedicated enough? Thats right, different people have different priorities. I assume coming on here for help is many peoples first step.
I can see there is not much room for discussion here. I'm already through the phase I was talking about so my question was just to learn and hear about experiences. I guess I shouldn't of even posted this thread because I knew it was not going to be received well and I would get all the same generic answers. I do still appreciate the time taken to respond, so thank you for the responses.

Real talk: You come off like a douchebag who already has all the answers and more willing to make excuses than heed the advice they came asking for. This is not the type of person that people want to go out of the way to help.

[timelinex]

There is no evidence for this. Stopping the Spread of Misinflammation | Jonathon Sullivan

I will read the entire article when I get a chance later today. However after skimming it, it looks like towards the end he does agree with me that it might stunt healing but even if it does it would be a small effect. Thats what I said. I guess the main disagreement is I saw that as settled science and he is saying we still don't actually know and that maybe reducing inflammation does help slightly.

Fine. I won't argue. Nothing will settle this but extensive studies and at the end of the day I agreed that the effect is minimal so that wasn't the main reason for not taking it. Pain isn't what bothered me but rather the thought of covering it up which will enable me to go further than I should be with an injury.

There is no evidence for this. At all. There is only the conventional wisdom. Cite your sources.

OK, I do NOT have solid sources for this, only what I have read multiple times. So then that specific example is not settled science. However I do know as fact that connective tissue grows and heals slower than muscle. They have very little blood supply and because of this heal much slower. This isn't hearsay, it's what we learned in hard science classes. Science is proven wrong all the time, fine, but I have never heard someone disagree with this?

It would then make the steroid claim "make sense". But of course I definitely agree that things that "make sense" aren't always right.

I do not disagree with this, at all. There are, of course, problems associated with doing the lifts incorrectly that may be incorrectly interpreted as being the result of your muscles getting stronger faster than than your connective tissues.

Fair point.

"Considered"? By whom? It works for me, so I "consider" it to work just fine, for me. But I don't take it as an anti-inflammatory, just as an analgesic. Where is this irrefutable canon of factology you seem to revere?

[/QUOTE]

No disagreement there. People respond differently to different meds. Studies have shown Ibuprofen works better than Tylenol for most things for most people (reducing fever, reducing soreness, etc.) Here is the first study that comes up when you google.

As far as I know, Acetaminophen is generally reserved for dental pain, for people that have stomach issues, or as an abuse deterrent in narcotics. If you find that Tylenol works better for you than Ibuprofen I'll never disagree with your experience. I would ask if it really makes you feel better or if Ibuprofen just tore up your stomach so the side effects weren't worth it. Then I would tuck away your answer into my bank of "anecdotal evidence" for reference at a later time. Regardless, I was talking generalities. Anyone can take whatever they want.

You have addressed my questions with your experience. Which is really all I wanted in the first place. Instead I got the equivalent of "No. End of explanation" at first. Doesn't help me if I don't know what part of my thinking was wrong to lead me to my initial conclusion.

Based on your answers I can infer that your belief is that novice gains at any age will not outpace connective tissue developments and you are most likely doing something wrong if you are getting pains. And if you are getting pains, throw some pain meds at it and train on. Don't slow down your training. Understood.

Thanks again.

Don't wakeboard on LP.


Yes, it can.


Read this twice:
http://startingstrength.com/articles...n_sullivan.pdf



Real talk: You come off like a douchebag who already has all the answers and more willing to make excuses than heed the advice they came asking for. This is not the type of person that people want to go out of the way to help.

Real talk: It's pretty puzzling to hear that I am coming off as the douche bag when I constantly try to give my reasons for my thinking (however wrong they may be, thats what a discussion is meant to iron out), don't directly attack anyone's ego, and say thank you for everyone taking their time to post. To me it sounds more like "if you don't agree with the general ideas on this forum then you are an idiot and/or douchebag". But hey, what do I know. I'm wrong all the time.

If I was just here to follow the heard and blow some free time, I would just agree with everyone, put down the non-regulars and collect sweet sweetbrowny points. I'm here to learn, not to win a popularity contest. If I disagree with you I will voice that concern and listen to your reply. I know I'm not changing any minds on here, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen and change my own. A good point is a good point, regardless of the person making it.