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Thread: Supplement - What, When, Why and How

  1. #1
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    Default Supplement - What, When, Why and How

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    Jordan,

    Really enjoying this part of the forum. Went back to the start and read through most posts. In various threads you provide a lot of good info on supplements. I thought starting a thread devoted to discussing supplements and What, When, Why and How to take them might help cut down on the time answering the same questions. At the various least it helps me to catalog for my own benefit.

    In another post you mention that you like the certain supplements. I often want to ask what brand you like, why you like that brand, how to take them (dosage, timing, if differing form the label). So I thought I would start a thread, do a little of the background cut and pasting, and maybe see if you could fill in the gaps as time permits.

    Very much a work in progress. Feel free to edit any part of this if your opinions have changed as I took different posts without regard to how timely they might be or if I have made erros.

    Obviously these are general recommendations and someone can ask more specifically based on their situation.

    Here are some of the supplements and info I have gathered from various posts.

    -Creatine

    Brand: The cheapest creatine monohydrate possible. Micronized or not, it doesn't matter. Currently using Optimum Nutrition's.

    Dosage: 5g/day everyday.

    Timing: I take 5g of creatine pre and post workout, then another dose with dinner. More than that and my stomach hurts. I haven't been off creatine in like 2 years

    Why: My opinion on creatine is this: If you're not using creatine you don't care about your training, irrespective of your goals. Seriously. There are non responders, yes- particularly in those who have a naturally high level of creatine stored in their muscles.

    It's a solid performer that's been tested and retested ad nauseum and the stuff works. The stuff just plain works. No need to load it or buy the fancy ethyl ester or HCl, just the plain stuff with a post workout shake or carbs.

    Creatine supplementation increases creatine-phosphate and creatine-kinase in the muscles, which can be used to produce energy for the phosphocreatine bioenergetic pathway. Yes, you'll be blunting your own production of creatine to fill the skeletal muscles, but you're supplementing at a level that assures that creatine stores will be maximized. Higher creatine-phosphate levels provide more raw energy (ATP) to the skeletal muscles during high force and high power movements, like heavy resistance training, sprinting, etc. More energy for force production= more strength, more volume, and creatine supplementation can also mitigate some recovery things, although it less accepted in the ex sci world. Additionally, creatine increases intramuscular hydration which is necessary for anabolism. Finally, there is some data suggesting it increases the number of myonuclei at the level of the tissue,thus increasing the amount of protein that can be synthesized by the muscle itself. In less words, it's legit.

    -BCAA's w/ leucine and citrulline malate

    Brand: Various. Perhaps GainzZz Rx

    Dosage andTiming: Training Days: 5-10g BCAA pre and post workout. Non Training days: None


    Why: Low calorie protein source that stimulates protein synthesis, spikes plasma amino acid levels quickly, and provides nutrients that are preferentially metabolized by skeletal muscle instead of the liver and small intestine. Citrulline malate has been shown to also increase protein synthesis and offers some fatigue resistance.

    -vitamin D

    Brand: NOW Foods Liquid D3

    Dosage: 1000-5000iu/day (depending on your heritage/ethnicity, sun exposure, weight). Take with fat source.

    Why: If you don't get enough sun daily or at the correct intensity, i.e. you live north of Atlanta, you may be deficient and Vitamin D is important in many metabolic processes. It's also really hard to OD on. On the other hand, there's increasing evidence to suggest that low vitamin D is actually a marker for other processes and even supplementing D3 may not raise levels. Additionally, some data suggests that even correcting the vitamin D deficiency doesn't improve clinical outcomes. On the other hand (third hand?), vitamin D supplementation has been used for decades in athletics with some success (see old Soviet programs). Finally, Vitamin D supplementation does have some risk in elderly populations- though interestingly, this is the same population where there is the most proven benefit. Overall, I don't think D3 is a terribly useful supplement, but I don't think it hurts either.

    -fish oil

    Brand: Carlson's (Cod Liver oil is good too), Nordic Naturals, Kirkland brand

    Dosage: Fish oil is tricky. I think it's a reasonable supplement for hard training lifters in moderate doses (1-2g of EPA/DHA a day in a mixed diet, or a bit higher in a low carb diet! 3-5g) but the science behind it is really mixed, at best. Long term data on the supplement doesn't show improved outcomes and the trials (short term) showing benefit have multiple confounders. I'm not sure how much I like fish oil in those without cardiac risk factors like high blood pressure, high cholesterol and triglycerides (best data on lowering trig's actually), etc.

    Basically fish oil is a fragile fatty acid that can oxidize rather easily and cause some damage, like free radical damage. You cannot decrease inflammation by supplementing omega 3's unless you decrease your intake of omega 6's/linoleic acid. There's just no evidence to support doses above 1-2g, at all.

    Timing: Anytime you can remember to take it. Maybe with your vitamin D?!?

    Why: It can lower triglycerides (if they're high) and some data to show it can improve pain associated with Rheumatoid arthritis (less clear on Osteoarthritis), but not terribly convincing data outside of those two situations.

    -Beta alanine

    Brand: Doesn't matter. Currently taking BB.com brand stuff.

    Dosage: 6g/day everyday.

    Timing: 2g pre, 2g post, 2g with dinner on training days. 2g x 3 servings on non training days.

    Why: Increases muscle carnosine levels, helps ward off fatigue, etc. No side effects besides a niacin-type flush (tingly!) and cheap. Takes a few weeks (4-6) to bring body levels up to snuff and stays peaked for a few weeks after cessation (4-6 weeks).

    -HMB

    Brand: No particular brand that I have loyalty to.

    Dosage: I like it at 6g/day everyday.

    Timing: 2g pre and post workout, 2 g at dinner. 2g x 3 servings whenever on non training days.

    Why: HMB has some good data behind it, though the amount of the effect isn't clear. Dr. Scott Conelly, or Met-Rx fame (and later- the infamous Progenex blunder), was one of the early supporters of HMB for its effect on skeletal muscle protein synthesis. It works as an intermediate of leucine metabolism, which is a potent signaler of protein synthesis in skeletal muscles. The caveat is that it just doesn't work that well on its own, but rather it works really well with additional supplementation of BCAA's, specifically leucine, and can increase protein synthesis rates to supraphysiological levels even in the absence of calories. I consider it to be a good staple for natty guys.

    -L carnitine

    Brand: Dymatize Nutrition

    Dosage: 3g a day

    Timing: 1g pre, post, and with dinner

    Why: Potential to reduce fatigue, improve ATP regeneration/recovery, and improve androgen receptor density (perhaps by decreasing free radical damage). However, the data overall on this supplement isn't terribly convincing. I'd consider this to be a third line supplement, at best, and only consider it if someone is taking creatine, beta alanine, and betaine anhydrous already.

    -Betaine anhydrous/TMG

    Brand: Betancourt Nutrition

    Dosage: 1g pre and post workout

    Timing: With pre and post workout meals.

    Why: Increases work capacity and recovery as a powerful anti-oxidant

    -multi vitamin

    Brand: Various.

    Dosage: Use as label describes.

    Timing: Use as label describes.

    Why: I personally don't use or recommend a multi vitamin, but some people eat so restrictively that it helps. I think if you eat a varied diet you shouldn't take a multi, period.

    R-ALA

    Brand: MRM

    Dosage: 300-600mg

    Timing: 300mg pre and post workout. On non training days take it with higher carb meals.

    Why: Some weak-ish evidence to support improved glucose transport into skeletal muscle.

    -ZMA

    Brand: None

    Dosage: as the label reads

    Timing: Before bed

    Why: You shouldn't take this unless you have a verifiable deficiency in zinc or magnesium, which you probably don't (unless your lab work says otherwise). There's not any data to support improved outcomes with a ZMA supplement.


    - Protein

    Brand: GainzZz Whey Protein Isolate

    See here
    ........to be continued
    Last edited by Jordan Feigenbaum; 09-28-2017 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Filling in the gaps

  2. #2
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    Updated it. Good work!

  3. #3
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    Great idea, two suggestions:

    1. Make this a sticky
    2. It might be helpful to differentiate the dosing protocol between training and non-training days.

  4. #4
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    Hey Jordan,

    Read on other posts that you like to use Protein Factory or TrueProtein.com for powders. Care to comment on what you like from the sites in general? Another related question is beyond those two websites which of the major labels do you think put out good protein?

    Steven

  5. #5
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    I've used both sites to make my own "whey" and buy in bulk. I just mix up some whey protein isolate and order 10-20lbs of it when I'm feeling frisky. They have some other cool stuff like leucine, creatine, etc. and other blends like casein hydrosylate but I haven't played around with it much because I don't believe it really matters.

    Currently, I'm on a Dymatize WPI kick, the all-natural rich chocolate stuff because it's fairly inexpensive. Optimum Nutrition's whey is good, as is Scivations. I hate muscle milk, for the record, and other high carb and high-filler protein supplements. Isopure could be good but I have no experience with it personally. For the record, I think whey protein concentrate (which is notoriously cheaper than other types of protein) is just as effective as whey protein isolate or casein in the grand scheme of things.

  6. #6
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    What's the standard dosing on BCAAs in terms of a mass per volume density? My package, despite instructing to take "scoops" included no scoop nor a volume for the bag. I've been doing a heaping teaspoon=5g, but I need to get more accurate with this shit.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanghi View Post
    What's the standard dosing on BCAAs in terms of a mass per volume density? My package, despite instructing to take "scoops" included no scoop nor a volume for the bag. I've been doing a heaping teaspoon=5g, but I need to get more accurate with this shit.
    Dude, mass/volume= density so mass per volume density doesn't add up, lol. Just busting your balls. It depends what ratio the aminos are in, i.e. 2:1:1 or something similar. What does the label say?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Dude, mass/volume= density so mass per volume density doesn't add up, lol. Just busting your balls. It depends what ratio the aminos are in, i.e. 2:1:1 or something similar. What does the label say?
    In retrospect, I realize how dumb that sounds lol. I meant mass per volume as a specific type of density, but suffice it to say I'm a dumbass.

    The ratio is 2:1:1. Here's the site http://www.nutrivitashop.com/brchamacbcfr.html . I'm guessing you would just compare it to other 2:1:1 BCAAs? I tried doing this but couldn't find any densities.

  9. #9
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    Lol, does the label not say anything? If there's no fillers like carbs, glutamine, etc. then 5g will give you 2.5 g of leucine and 1.25 of the isoleucine and valine. You just have to find out what else is in there.

  10. #10
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    starting strength coach development program
    Is it possible to be a non-responder to creatine? I've taken it before and observed no difference. Any thoughts?

    BTW am in week 3 of your diet recommendations and ditched IF 2 weeks ago. Was an adjustment but things are rolling now/strength is going well while my bodyfat seems to be declining slowly.

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