Long term nutritional strategy for non-athletes?

[crookedfinger]

Jordan,
I am curious as to what your philosophy is for us non-athletes that are just average guys trying to get as strong as we can over time.

So let’s assume programming is somewhat intelligent and an individual is 20% or below in body fat and they were concerned about continually getting stronger over the next 5-10 years. They are not an athlete and they don’t compete. Would your advice be to manipulate macros to keep body fat under control and use conditioning to increase work capacity and/or impact body composition while continually adding weight to the bar? Or would there be something different or more specific?

Would your advice change for someone who is in there 40’s and 50’s vs. someone in their 20’s?

Basically, I am interested to know what the approach is when one takes aesthetics and arbitrary deadlines driven by performance or a desired body composition out of the equation and focuses more on long term strength increases as the sole goal while attempting to remain healthy, however, we choose to define that...

Thank you for your time and input.
Mark

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I don't know if I know anyone, athlete or not, who doesn't have some sort of body composition goal. Do you?

My main goal would be to fully develop them physically without risking too much injury for testing and within the confines of their availability to train. This would, of course, change over time.

[crookedfinger]

I don't know if I know anyone, athlete or not, who doesn't have some sort of body composition goal. Do you?

Meh, I readily admit that I know no one without some sort of body composition goal. But I think it comes down to priorities. Personally, I am at the stage in my journey where reaching my strength potential is more important. At 5' 11" and soon to be 41, I have been as light as 178 (after losing close to 80 pounds) and currently sit around 230. I have visible upper abs, but have always had a lower abdomen jiggle even at 178 (it seems like from my belly button down will always have some degree of fat to pinch). Would I love that to be gone? Yes. At the expense of not getting stronger? No.

I am just interested in what happens if one removes aesthetic goals and weight restrictions based upon competition and were to focus on getting stronger while remaining relatively lean (under 20%). I imagine one would prioritize continually adding weight to the bar over time, while reducing calories or upping them depending upon what is happening to one's lifts and their body fat %. While strategically introducing conditioning to assist with favorable body composition (lean mass increases vs. fat gain) and work capacity. I am thinking of a period of 3-5 years vs. 3-9 months. But, I am a laymen at this type of stuff and may be very naive in my thinking.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I think you have to look at how the strongest in the world approach this. Most of these folks push their weight up to a point where they're no longer getting stronger despite weight increases and then cut back down to a weight class they are competitive in. Also, your definition eliminates virtually all 120kg+ lifters (non enhanced). As far as what a non athlete, non weight class strength enthusiast would do with their nutrition, they'd most likely tailor it to their training volume and recovery needs after going through the initial overshoot of getting bigger than everyone else says they should be. Fulling developing a person's physical characteristics requires attention to developing energy systems too, which affects recovery from strength training (and thus ultimately strength levels). So getting to a good body weight for a particular individual is going to depend on lots of factors IMO.

[crookedfinger]

As far as what a non athlete, non weight class strength enthusiast would do with their nutrition, they'd most likely tailor it to their training volume and recovery needs after going through the initial overshoot of getting bigger than everyone else says they should be. Fulling developing a person's physical characteristics requires attention to developing energy systems too, which affects recovery from strength training (and thus ultimately strength levels). So getting to a good body weight for a particular individual is going to depend on lots of factors IMO.

This is what I am really interested in. The pursuit of strength as a means of life and health and for its own intents and purposes. No competition. A balanced, longterm approach to training to reach one's potential. Again, I may be naive...

So, not to be a jerk, um, how's that book coming? I look forward to purchasing and reading it....

Thanks Jordan!

[DV]

I think you have to look at how the strongest in the world approach this. Most of these folks push their weight up to a point where they're no longer getting stronger despite weight increases and then cut back down to a weight class they are competitive in.

I am not Jordan, but from where I am sitting as a non-athlete currently using something akin to this approach, I would say you can do a lot worse than using this methodology. The exact cut-off point for how high your push your weight and how far you cut down might be more affected by bodycomp and general life concerns, of course.

I read something from Andy Baker which might help you get more structure. It seems he bases work on a year calendar, picking out times to increase strength (where you would eat more) and times to cut down while trying to hold on to your gains (GainzZz?). I think the explanations were sent out by email, but you can get an idea of how he programmes for his new exec programme: The Executive Strength Club - Baker Strength Coaching

[amsgator]

I think you have to look at how the strongest in the world approach this. Most of these folks push their weight up to a point where they're no longer getting stronger despite weight increases and then cut back down to a weight class they are competitive in.

We all know you're strong as fuck, so out of curiosity what was the highest body fat % you reached? Were you ever plump and then cut back down?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

This is what I am really interested in. The pursuit of strength as a means of life and health and for its own intents and purposes. No competition. A balanced, longterm approach to training to reach one's potential. Again, I may be naive...

Right so I think there are too many variables to pontificate about this without some sort of context, i.e. a hypothetical person, their lifestyle, and other constraints for training/recovery/motivation.

We all know you're strong as fuck, so out of curiosity what was the highest body fat % you reached? Were you ever plump and then cut back down?

Probably 22-25% percent sometime in college at 220-230lbs. To be fair, most people on the internet would call that 15-17%, but I'm just trying to be more realistic.

[crookedfinger]

Right so I think there are too many variables to pontificate about this without some sort of context, i.e. a hypothetical person, their lifestyle, and other constraints for training/recovery/motivation.

Ok, let's use me as an example:
Male, 5' 11", 40, 230
Deads are at 525 for work sets
Squats are at 415 for work sets

I train 3 days a week. Running a more volume intensive version of 531 and am on my 19th 4 week cycle-no deload week, just repeat week one in the cycle for added volume. Work sets are sets across and I squat twice week. BF% is unknown. Like I said, visible upper abs, but flabby and can pinch a bunch around the belly button and lower. This is where I carry most of my BF. I'd guess somewhere between 15-23%. Levi's 505s size 36 which are about an 1.5 inch loose on the waist, but tight on my legs.

I think it is realistic to squat in the 500's and pull in the 700's and would expect this to take me about 2.5-3 years and I would imagine being somewhere around 250 with BF at about 15%. I don't mind an extra day of conditioning, but prefer not to train more than 3 days a week. Recovery doesn't seem to be an issue running my current program. Goal would be to not "cut" but gradually recomp over time.

[Lloyd90]

Right so I think there are too many variables to pontificate about this without some sort of context, i.e. a hypothetical person, their lifestyle, and other constraints for training/recovery/motivation.



Probably 22-25% percent sometime in college at 220-230lbs. To be fair, most people on the internet would call that 15-17%, but I'm just trying to be more realistic.

Out of curiosity how much were you eating roughly and how was the training ?

I can't recall your height tbh sorry Jordan. Did you get to eat an awesome amount of food ? lol!