question about a programming recommendation you gave during a recomp

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I (think) there are 2 generally accepted ways to do this:

1) slow. Cut calories to 100 or 200 below TDEE a day as an average per week. Eat 100 or 200 over TDEE on training days, cut on the non training days. Takes longer, but strength can be maintained, or improved.

This doesn't work.

2) fast. Cut calories so that .5% of body weight is lost per week, not cutting below Basal Metabolic. Work out fasted, take BCAA before, yada yada. No way to really eat to TDEE on work out days as there just isn't enough calorie leeway as to not drop below Basal rest of the week, although some calorie move around is doable. HiiT on non training days to deplete glycogen stores, ect.

This isn't "fast" and the methods you listed are suboptimal, additionally.

1) is completely doable for almost everyone, but can take months to see the results you want. 2) will yield dramatic results, but you WILL lose strength while doing it, although it comes back very fast.

This has not been my experience with people who are training appropriately, e.g. not doing 5/3/1 or TM.

[Ryaan]

I would love to see a strength-focused early intermediate recomp/slow cut program. I think there are a lot of people who start LP a little fluffy, gain a little more weight running LP, but don't want to get any fatter when the easy gains taper off.

Seconded! I would definitely pay for a solid program with these goals in mind, and I suspect many others would as well.

[coleossus]

I don't expect a specific answer as to "what" it is if it exists, but is there really anything more that needs to be done than eating the correct macros for your goal weight/body fat composition?

Even if you're 100 lbs overweight, if you're feeding yourself as if you were a 240 lb/15% bodyfat trainee (repeat: with the correct macros/varied diet) and training properly, won't your body recomposition correctly over the long term if you just stay compliant?

[JT_]

I'm at 22% BF and just starting LP with SS. I have conflicting goals though because I want to get stronger but I don't want to get any fatter than I am now. Should I just try and maintain current work sets and focus on a cut down to maybe 12-15% and then hit the LP hard with a calorie surplus?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I don't expect a specific answer as to "what" it is if it exists, but is there really anything more that needs to be done than eating the correct macros for your goal weight/body fat composition?

Even if you're 100 lbs overweight, if you're feeding yourself as if you were a 240 lb/15% bodyfat trainee (repeat: with the correct macros/varied diet) and training properly, won't your body recomposition correctly over the long term if you just stay compliant?

No, you'll just lose bodyfat (and weight) or you'll gain muscle and gain weight (including fat). If neither of these things are happening, you're not doing anything to change fat or muscle really.

I'm at 22% BF and just starting LP with SS. I have conflicting goals though because I want to get stronger but I don't want to get any fatter than I am now. Should I just try and maintain current work sets and focus on a cut down to maybe 12-15% and then hit the LP hard with a calorie surplus?

What's your squat right now, how old, how tall, and how much do you weigh?

[JT_]

Been doing SS for 3 weeks. Squat 300, 32 years old, 5'10, 210lbs. I've added 25lbs to the squat in 3 weeks.

[JT_]

Hey Jordan, just found your article "To be a beast" and it answered my question. I'm the fluffy novice

[cph]

I saw in another thread that you usually allow a trainee 3-4 months of LP before recomp or even a cut. I'm at that point now. I've gained 3-4 more pounds than I wanted to, so I'm switching to TBAB fat loss this week. Should stick with the textbook 2 deloads before switching to intermediate programming? Will I get much out of a deload on a caloric deficit?

If you need it:

• 34 years old, mid 20s BF (navy method)
• Weight 195 -> 212 (gained about 1" on my waist)
• Squat 105 -> 315 3x5 (just missed at 320 for the first time, adding a light day next week)
• DL 350x5, Bench 180x5x3, Press 122.5x5x3

Haven't missed any deadlift reps yet. Still moving bench @5 lbs.; press @2.5 lbs.

[wmilas]

This doesn't work.

This isn't "fast" and the methods you listed are suboptimal, additionally.

This has not been my experience with people who are training appropriately, e.g. not doing 5/3/1 or TM.

I wrote a long reply but realized I sound like an asshat. So just let me state that those are summaries from Dr. Layne Nortons work. Poor summations most likely as I'm no doctor.

I know when I took my 110 lbs of fat off dipping much below basal metabolic caused muscle loss. I'm not sure how you could go much faster than .5 or .6 % of body mass weekly once the initial glycogen stores are depleted, water is excreted, and metabolic slowdown starts. Maybe .8% but I never could sustain that without performance loss.

I'm also at a loss on why an average 200 kCal deficit daily won't work. It's slow, but it's thermodynamics. You will lose fat if you are in a net negative balance. It's how it works. I wouldn't want to do it that way as I could never adhere to it for the extended time it would take.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I saw in another thread that you usually allow a trainee 3-4 months of LP before recomp or even a cut. I'm at that point now. I've gained 3-4 more pounds than I wanted to, so I'm switching to TBAB fat loss this week. Should stick with the textbook 2 deloads before switching to intermediate programming? Will I get much out of a deload on a caloric deficit?

If you need it:

• 34 years old, mid 20s BF (navy method)
• Weight 195 -> 212 (gained about 1" on my waist)
• Squat 105 -> 315 3x5 (just missed at 320 for the first time, adding a light day next week)
• DL 350x5, Bench 180x5x3, Press 122.5x5x3

Haven't missed any deadlift reps yet. Still moving bench @5 lbs.; press @2.5 lbs.

Honestly, my recommendation would be to not cut just yet. You're still LP'ing very well and I'd wait until Advanced novice stopped working.

I wrote a long reply but realized I sound like an asshat. So just let me state that those are summaries from Dr. Layne Nortons work. Poor summations most likely as I'm no doctor.

It is totally possible he has said this somewhere, but having worked with Dr. Norton before and talked with him extensively, I assure you he would not suggest that a good strategy for weight loss is to have a big deficit on non training days and that 100-200 extra cals on training days is significant. I see that you mentioned a 100-200cal/day average deficit, which corresponds to ~700-1400cal/wk deficit. Having read this more closely, sure that'd work. However, I do not agree with the fluctuation between training and non training days in this context.

I know when I took my 110 lbs of fat off dipping much below basal metabolic caused muscle loss. I'm not sure how you could go much faster than .5 or .6 % of body mass weekly once the initial glycogen stores are depleted, water is excreted, and metabolic slowdown starts. Maybe .8% but I never could sustain that without performance loss.

Well, we will always lose muscle mass when we lose weight- 100% of the time. We don't really have a choice. Performance is more related to programming, previous training, and a bunch of other factors other than small changes in bodyweight, unless describing a novice.