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Thread: Sleep and recovery

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giri View Post
    Further question on recovery and stress. If I were to quantifiably measure stress and recovery and express them in terms of numbers, what would those parameters be?
    Can't be done reliably.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Can't be done reliably.
    I can't remember the name of it, but when I was in undergrad over a decade ago the new fad was a whole trademarked system one could purchase that attemped at quantify stress and fatigue (based on heart rate and some other physiological values), plan programming based on that and prevent overtraining. It was computer based and of course it cost an arm and a leg and didn't work. Do you remember it Jordan?

    Then HRV came around, and from what I understand it also didn't do much to accomplish this either.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnumrych View Post
    I can't remember the name of it, but when I was in undergrad over a decade ago the new fad was a whole trademarked system one could purchase that attemped at quantify stress and fatigue (based on heart rate and some other physiological values), plan programming based on that and prevent overtraining. It was computer based and of course it cost an arm and a leg and didn't work. Do you remember it Jordan?

    Then HRV came around, and from what I understand it also didn't do much to accomplish this either.
    Not sure, but there are a lot of systems trying to do this now that still don't work.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Can't be done reliably.
    That's to be expected with almost any decently complicated biological system. But I'm not looking for numbers that'd give absolute and deterministic training outcomes. But say, EMG, barspeed, resting heart rate, Testosterone levels, blood glucose levels, HbA1c or even RPE etc. all combined, could still provide a useful template for the programming path ahead. I ask in that sense. As a doctor, what would be the very basic indicators you'd look for to get an idea of the stress, recovery and adaptation of your trainees (or yourself), if not subjected to limitations of money, time and practicality? Say, the top 3 indicators for each of S, R and A.

  5. #25
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    Dont wanna hijack but i got a related question.

    I have a hard time sleeping in. Barely matters what time I go to bed, or how much sleep i had during the week, I always wake up pretty fk early. When its either late shifts, or im just chillin with the boys and make it late, or went clubbin at saturday and mondays 0700 here we are again.

    The only way i can control the amount of sleep is changing bed time. Which is not bad persé, but I dont always have control over that. Would be nice to sleep in when u can, get that lil xtra rest in. Somehow my body just wants go with the bare minimum.

    Any thoughts?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giri View Post
    That's to be expected with almost any decently complicated biological system. But I'm not looking for numbers that'd give absolute and deterministic training outcomes.
    You're wanting numbers to track to measure recovery, but not affect management of training? Why?

    But say, EMG, barspeed, resting heart rate, Testosterone levels, blood glucose levels, HbA1c or even RPE etc. all combined, could still provide a useful template for the programming path ahead.
    This would be a "deterministic training outcome" predictor, if it worked- esp EMG and RPE since it would already be while training. Testosterone levels, blood glucose levels, a1c are all chronic changes, so I wouldn't expect those to predict anything.

    I ask in that sense. As a doctor, what would be the very basic indicators you'd look for to get an idea of the stress, recovery and adaptation of your trainees (or yourself), if not subjected to limitations of money, time and practicality? Say, the top 3 indicators for each of S, R and A.
    Well I don't think any doctor actually needs to know these things because they are not trained to manage exercise programming for anyone, let alone a competitive athlete who would be the market for something like this. Also, you'd want three variables that track predictably along S, R, and A otherwise how would you know when you're in each phase? So, again- I don't think it can be done at all in any reliable manner, but I'll mentally masturbate for a second:

    I suppose looking at a daily testosterone/cortisol ratio, orthostatic vital signs, and max vertical leap would be something that could, possibly, but probably not, be tracked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maties Hofstede View Post
    Dont wanna hijack but i got a related question.

    I have a hard time sleeping in. Barely matters what time I go to bed, or how much sleep i had during the week, I always wake up pretty fk early. When its either late shifts, or im just chillin with the boys and make it late, or went clubbin at saturday and mondays 0700 here we are again.

    The only way i can control the amount of sleep is changing bed time. Which is not bad persé, but I dont always have control over that. Would be nice to sleep in when u can, get that lil xtra rest in. Somehow my body just wants go with the bare minimum.

    Any thoughts?
    Are you tired during the day? How much do you sleep nightly?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maties Hofstede View Post
    I have a hard time sleeping in. Barely matters what time I go to bed, or how much sleep i had during the week, I always wake up pretty fk early. When its either late shifts, or im just chillin with the boys and make it late, or went clubbin at saturday and mondays 0700 here we are again.
    I have this same problem, guessing you wake up at the same time M-F? I always want to sleep in during the week, come Saturday/Sunday I'm up and at 'em by 6:30 or 7 np. Regardless of whether I went to bed at 11 or 2am. I'm pretty sure your body is just used to getting up at that time and your biological alarm clock goes off. I'm wondering if making time for a nap earlier in the day would help recover that missed sleep.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    max vertical leap
    Say that 3 times and Umair will show up like Beetlejuice.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maties Hofstede View Post
    Dont wanna hijack but i got a related question.

    I have a hard time sleeping in. Barely matters what time I go to bed, or how much sleep i had during the week, I always wake up pretty fk early. When its either late shifts, or im just chillin with the boys and make it late, or went clubbin at saturday and mondays 0700 here we are again.

    The only way i can control the amount of sleep is changing bed time. Which is not bad persé, but I dont always have control over that. Would be nice to sleep in when u can, get that lil xtra rest in. Somehow my body just wants go with the bare minimum.

    Any thoughts?
    Google sleep-maintenance insomnia. I get it from time to time, and it can be a bear. If i have to get up to pee between 3-4 a.m. (which happens more and more now that I'm 40), it is difficult to get back to sleep. If I fall back asleep at all, it will be right before my alarm goes off at 6. So the next day, I want to pass out by 9pm.

    The way to treat it is by creating "sleep pressure," forcing yourself to stay up extremely late every night for as long as it takes for you to consistently blow by your sticking point and disrupt any circadian rhythms that might have developed. The first few night, you may still wake up early, but eventually the sleep pressure from sleeping only a few hours every night builds up and forces you back to sleep. Then you slowly move your bedtime back to a normal time. But you have to be consistent without your routine throughout the process, and skip the alcohol (at least at night). Since I have to get up at 6 to get the kids to school and me to work, when this pops up I force myself to stay up to midnight for about a week. While the first few nights I will still wake up at 4, eventually the lack of sleep catches up and I am able to get back to sleep and stay asleep until 6. Then I slowly move my bedtime back to 11 or so.

    By the way, there is some evidence that a two phase sleep cycle was the norm until modern times. People used to go to sleep at sunset, wake up for an hour or so in the early morning hours, then go back to sleep until sunrise. Google "Second sleep". I thought it was interesting...

  10. #30
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    Not particularly "tired". But also not vibrant and running on all cylinders, especially when i hit rhe bed at 0100/0200 and wake up at 0700/0800. Just seems weird, since all my buddies easily sleep in till 10/11 ish on days like that.

    Sleep anywhere from 5-8 hrs. Kinda depends. So i get my sleep in mostly, but it does feel as if sleep hours before 12 count double.

    Probably just a lifestyle thing. Guess i'd fare better on a more normal bed routine but you know, life. Or stress.

    Thnx!

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