Sleep and recovery

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Google sleep-maintenance insomnia.

That's not what this is.

The way to treat it is by creating "sleep pressure," forcing yourself to stay up extremely late every night for as long as it takes for you to consistently blow by your sticking point and disrupt any circadian rhythms that might have developed.

This is what you would use if three was a sleep phase disorder, which is not what he or you have seemingly.

By the way, there is some evidence that a two phase sleep cycle was the norm until modern times. People used to go to sleep at sunset, wake up for an hour or so in the early morning hours, then go back to sleep until sunrise. Google "Second sleep". I thought it was interesting...

Not so much evidence that this was super common, really. However, some evidence that people followed the light/dark schedules and would therefore sleep quite awhile, wake up and pray/work/fornicate, then go back to sleep.

Not particularly "tired". But also not vibrant and running on all cylinders, especially when i hit rhe bed at 0100/0200 and wake up at 0700/0800. Just seems weird, since all my buddies easily sleep in till 10/11 ish on days like that.

Yea I think this is just owing itself to your circadian rhythm, which suggests a fairly normal bedtime routine outside of nights out ya know?

[Maties Hofstede]

Yea I think this is just owing itself to your circadian rhythm, which suggests a fairly normal bedtime routine outside of nights out ya know?

Yupp, I guess. Too bad life, work, socialising etc dont take my circadian rhytm into account. Id probably be a terrible shift worker. Just have to keep an eye on it I guess.

Just for interest, any explanation as how this works? You would think the body would take the rest when it is given (sleeping in). Somehow mine goes with the bare minimum. I have friends in carpenting. They literally can build up sleep deprivation troughtout the week, 4-5 hrs a night, and fridays crash n burn at 6pm sleep 12 hrs......
Good to go

Thnx btw, these threads are extremely worthwile and your input is as always top notch.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

How the circadian rhythm works or how sleep debt works?

[Maties Hofstede]

Uhh, not sure? Its just anecdotal stories from my side so

How sleeb debt and circadian rhytm are intertwined maybe? Like I said, if i need to catch up on sleeb debt, i have to go to bed damn early, and then wake up at 0600 anyways. Body favors circadian rhytm over sleeb debt then it seems. Others sleep in a couple hours xtra and they're fine.

Im probably rambling, and its not really an issue, just for personal interest. If you wanna let this pass its cool.

Thnxx

[MattBraunstein]

I have a similar issue where I cannot sleep in no matter what time I go to sleep. My sleep doc had mentioned that doctors are seeing positive results from cognitive behavioral therapy. It has a much greater rate of success, especially long term, over deugs for insomnia. There are some pretty inexpensive internet programs for this. I'm debating about trying one myself. The one he suggested, but hadn't tried before, was SHUTi.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Uhh, not sure? Its just anecdotal stories from my side so

How sleeb debt and circadian rhytm are intertwined maybe? Like I said, if i need to catch up on sleeb debt, i have to go to bed damn early, and then wake up at 0600 anyways. Body favors circadian rhytm over sleeb debt then it seems. Others sleep in a couple hours xtra and they're fine.

Usually when sleep debt builds enough, it changes the circadian rhythm. I would posit a single night of delayed time to bed doesn't do this and that your circadian rhythm is pretty strong.

I have a similar issue where I cannot sleep in no matter what time I go to sleep. My sleep doc had mentioned that doctors are seeing positive results from cognitive behavioral therapy. It has a much greater rate of success, especially long term, over deugs for insomnia. There are some pretty inexpensive internet programs for this. I'm debating about trying one myself. The one he suggested, but hadn't tried before, was SHUTi.

Yes, CBT and other psych interventions tend to do better. That said, I would not recommend CBT in order to have a super flexible circadian rhythm, rather I would default to recommending keeping consistent hours.

[Barry Charles]

While completely anecdotal I once conducted a long term sleep experiment on myself.

I lived at the south pole for a little more than one year. A place with exactly one sunrise and one sunset per year. Clocks are arbitrary w.r.t. daytime/night time. For nine of the months, when we were down to a skeleton crew, I was able to sleep when tired and wake when not tired (no alarm clock). Our berthing areas (rooms) were private, quite and dark. With a few exceptions of time critical experiments or other events, I went to sleep on average 2hrs latter each successive night and woke, naturally after (almost) 8 hrs. This 26hr cycle was slightly asynchronous with a normal 24hr cycle. I was acutely aware of my own cycle which repeated more than 20 times in 9 months.

The lesson of this experience was, the amount of sleep required is roughly constant and the cue TO sleep drifts from the normal 24hr circadian inputs. I would weigh amount over timing.

[marcf]

My sleep sucks. I always wake up 3-3.5 hours after falling asleep, and then I'm wide awake for 2 hours or so before I can finally fall asleep again. And when I do, I'm asleep for 3-4 hours before I have to get up and I end up feeling like butt all day everyday.

[MattBraunstein]

Yes, CBT and other psych interventions tend to do better. That said, I would not recommend CBT in order to have a super flexible circadian rhythm, rather I would default to recommending keeping consistent hours.

How would you discern the cause of early morning awakenings? Is there different symptoms that would suggest a circadian rhythm cause vs insomnia?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

How would you discern the cause of early morning awakenings? Is there different symptoms that would suggest a circadian rhythm cause vs insomnia?

A history and physical exam in addition to some lab workup and, possibly, a sleep study.

Depression, low iron, a nocturnal arousal syndrome, etc. could be the etiology.