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Thread: Sleep, Weight Loss, T-Levels, and Gainzzz

  1. #1
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    Default Sleep, Weight Loss, T-Levels, and Gainzzz

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    Appreciate all the help you give people here. I have a few questions for you:

    Stats: 41 year old male, 5’6” inches, current weight 202lb, 22-23% BF (navy method), early intermediate level lifter with sub par results (5RMs at BW of about 211lb): 310x5 Squat, 345x5 DL, 165x5 Press, 245x5 Bench). Been training 2 years and 2 months.

    My t-levels were tested in late May (prior to my cut)…when I was about 216lb..probably 27% BF. Free T was 111, Total T was 415. Dr. did not feel this qualifies for any TRT treatment. No challenges in the bedroom though and still basically as horny as a 16 year old.

    My sleep sucks. I fall asleep fine, but wake up about 4 to 6 times a night…for 5 to 20 min stretches of awake time…and am often tired throughout the day. Doc thought I had sleep apnea, but the home study sleep test was negative…4 apneas per hour. No insurance coverage for the in-lab test.

    I am currently on a cut, working with Robert Santana. And get programming from SSOC…through Karl.

    I lost the genetic strength lottery…total motor moron with no explosive capability. But I am smart and somewhat witty 

    My questions are:

    1) Would you suspect these t-levels to be part of my sup-par results…despite years of consistent/hard work & good programming?
    2) How much do you think a significant BF cut will help my t-levels and thus overall gains? 5%, 10%, 50%??? Ball park the possibilities…I know they vary person to person.
    3) Any suggestions for improving my sleep quality? I know and follow sleep hygiene best I can. Dr wants me to try CBT with sleep therapist. I’m fine with that, but not sure if it will really help or not.

    While this is somewhat specific, I’m hoping it not only helps me…but that it touches on things that can help others as well.

    Thanks in advance!!!

  2. #2
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    Entering,

    Thanks for the post.

    1) I would suspect your testosterone levels are no involved at all in your results. Data suggests within the normal range, lower testosterone tend to have greater strength. Ultimately I take this to mean it doesn't matter what the level is so long as it's in the normal range.

    2) Probably anywhere between 0-15%, given that you don't have low testosterone.

    3) On the sleep thing, how long has this been going on and on average, how many nights per week do you get these symptoms?

    I should say, the deal with your testosterone levels is not an uncommon one and I don't want to downplay your concerns, but the evidence is pretty bad when discussing the utility of supplementing someone within the normal range. Further, we don't know how much testosterone goes up (and to what degree it matters) with weight loss in a non hypogonadal person. In someone who is less than 300 and whose BMI is >30, test levels may go up ~15% or so, but this is a different scenario since they were hypogonadal (low testosterone) before ya know?

  3. #3
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    On the topic of normal test levels. I had my test labs drawn last year by my PCP at my request because of some non-specific symptoms like fatigue, poor sleep, increased BF, cranky. Result was 199 ng/dL), which prompted follow up labs, a visit to an endo and a urologist. PCP was concerned enough he scheduled follow up with endo who thought nothing of the results. I didn't like how dismissive of my concern the endo was so I asked for referral to urologist.

    For reference, 34/M, 5'11" 255, no ED, and wife is due in September, so "things" work (pretty sure its mine *fingers crossed*), and no gynecomastia. Lifts are low but I started LP very conservatively a month ago for the second time (first time in 2009/2010), BS 240x5x3, BP 140x5x3, DL 295x5, PR 115x5x3. My BW/BF is definitely not where I want it, and I'm working on it, and as long as my hip doesn't start giving me issues the strength will continue to go up.

    These are the 2nd and 3rd results (first was only the total of 199 ng/dL). Would these labs be concerning to you at all? (spaced 1 week apart, fasted, AM)

  4. #4
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    Thx or the answers on t-levels. Makes sense....someone with low T would get a 15% or higher spike with weight loss...but at a diagnosed "low" level...that really doesn't do much takes them to 345, etc. I was hoping for some fountain of youth for gainzz here..by fixing the body comp Oh well. genetics are a bitch. Time to keep on working hard.

    For the sleep, the symptoms have been happening for years I think...but definitely for the past year. I would say I only feel rested after sleeping maybe once or twice a week....sometimes not at all. It has been a little better lately so I am wondering if losing 15lbs helped clear up some apnea...hence the negative test for apnea as well.

    I track sleep with a fitbit, and can share that info. But I assume that is more used as a rough guide..basically entertainment value from a science perspective.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnumrych View Post
    On the topic of normal test levels. I had my test labs drawn last year by my PCP at my request because of some non-specific symptoms like fatigue, poor sleep, increased BF, cranky. Result was 199 ng/dL), which prompted follow up labs, a visit to an endo and a urologist. PCP was concerned enough he scheduled follow up with endo who thought nothing of the results. I didn't like how dismissive of my concern the endo was so I asked for referral to urologist.

    For reference, 34/M, 5'11" 255, no ED, and wife is due in September, so "things" work (pretty sure its mine *fingers crossed*), and no gynecomastia. Lifts are low but I started LP very conservatively a month ago for the second time (first time in 2009/2010), BS 240x5x3, BP 140x5x3, DL 295x5, PR 115x5x3. My BW/BF is definitely not where I want it, and I'm working on it, and as long as my hip doesn't start giving me issues the strength will continue to go up.

    These are the 2nd and 3rd results (first was only the total of 199 ng/dL). Would these labs be concerning to you at all? (spaced 1 week apart, fasted, AM)
    Two low T levels would suggest potentially some management, but given your one normal level I'd probably get another lab draw and have a better assessment on symptoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by entering40strongerthan20 View Post
    Thx or the answers on t-levels. Makes sense....someone with low T would get a 15% or higher spike with weight loss...but at a diagnosed "low" level...that really doesn't do much takes them to 345, etc. I was hoping for some fountain of youth for gainzz here..by fixing the body comp Oh well. genetics are a bitch. Time to keep on working hard.
    Again, this is a mistake in thinking that 500 is > 345 with respect to performance and outcomes. It's not.

    For the sleep, the symptoms have been happening for years I think...but definitely for the past year. I would say I only feel rested after sleeping maybe once or twice a week....sometimes not at all. It has been a little better lately so I am wondering if losing 15lbs helped clear up some apnea...hence the negative test for apnea as well.
    I would be interesting in that as well.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I would be interesting in that as well.
    I'm going to chime in to this thread with my personal experience. I started training when I was ~36. I am 5'11" and weighed ~258.

    I dieted down to 178 while lifting, but not running a true LP. Sleep slowly improved as I lost weight, blood work improved, overall feelings of wellness improved and T Levels rose.

    Now here's where it gets really fucking interesting. At 178, I decided I was way too fucking skinny (my wife called me scrawny) and I was tired of "dieting" and Jordan told me I needed "more exposure to the lifts," so I started gaining weight (about .5 pounds a week). That first 6 months of gaining weight was amazing. I am now 42 years old (soon to be 43). I weigh 245-250 depending on the week. Prior to a recent injury my squats singles were in the low 500's and my pulls were in the low 600's. I can do 20 strict chin ups. My recent bloodwork has my cholesterol at the lowest it's ever been. Not sure where T Levels are at, currently, but there are no issues there. Sleep is good.
    At a fat 258, I had sleep apnea, at a decently strong 250, no issues.

    From a bodyweight perespective, I sit better at ~235. But I'm not worried about getting there at this point as I still have some goals for my lifts.

    My advice: get stronger than you think you can. If you think a 300 pound squat is a good goal. Add 100 pounds. Train hard and consistently over many years-not weeks, not months-years. Eat a decent amount of protein. Walk more. Prioritize your training. It is not exercise. It is not something you'll get to. 3 days a week, train like your life depends on it. 6 years later you'll be glad you did.

  7. #7
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    Amen.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by crookedfinger View Post
    I'm going to chime in to this thread with my personal experience. I started training when I was ~36. I am 5'11" and weighed ~258.

    I dieted down to 178 while lifting, but not running a true LP. Sleep slowly improved as I lost weight, blood work improved, overall feelings of wellness improved and T Levels rose.

    Now here's where it gets really fucking interesting. At 178, I decided I was way too fucking skinny (my wife called me scrawny) and I was tired of "dieting" and Jordan told me I needed "more exposure to the lifts," so I started gaining weight (about .5 pounds a week). That first 6 months of gaining weight was amazing. I am now 42 years old (soon to be 43). I weigh 245-250 depending on the week. Prior to a recent injury my squats singles were in the low 500's and my pulls were in the low 600's. I can do 20 strict chin ups. My recent bloodwork has my cholesterol at the lowest it's ever been. Not sure where T Levels are at, currently, but there are no issues there. Sleep is good.
    At a fat 258, I had sleep apnea, at a decently strong 250, no issues.

    From a bodyweight perespective, I sit better at ~235. But I'm not worried about getting there at this point as I still have some goals for my lifts.

    My advice: get stronger than you think you can. If you think a 300 pound squat is a good goal. Add 100 pounds. Train hard and consistently over many years-not weeks, not months-years. Eat a decent amount of protein. Walk more. Prioritize your training. It is not exercise. It is not something you'll get to. 3 days a week, train like your life depends on it. 6 years later you'll be glad you did.
    *saved link to this post in my Strength>Motivation folder*

  9. #9
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    Love it. thx for the advice. I'm 2 years in....with rock solid consistency. So really from this point.....sounds like I just need to keep on trucking. Thx guys.

  10. #10
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    Hi Jordan,

    I wanted to jump on this thread. I'm male, 37 yrs old, 5'10", 205 lbs, body fat % measured by bodpod to be sub 20% (I know that may not be the best method, just putting it out there that it's not like 40%), lifting for 10 years. I suspected I had low testosterone levels due to several factors: extremely low sperm count 10 years ago when my wife and I were trying for our first kid (2nd and 3rd kid came about with no problem), extremely long refractory period, undescended testicle as a child (two surgeries to fix), gynecomastia, depression, etc. So I had my levels checked four years ago, and it came back as 588. Doctor said everything is fine.

    I've been working back from a low back tweak for the past 6 months. My current lifts are 5x5 work sets: bench 225lbs, squat 315lbs, press 155lbs, deadlift (3x5) 360lbs.

    I thought losing some of the fat may help performance. So three months ago I locked down on my diet. My daily diet, 5 days a week consists of 1699 calories, 237 g protein, 113 g carbs, 30 g fat. Weight on the bar was still going up, so I assumed my body fat would go down. But there was no change in bodyweight, no discernable change that I could see in appearance or clothing (belt on same loop, lifting belt and dress belt). Lowering caloric intake more seemed like a bad idea cause I'm not strong.

    I had my testosterone level checked again. Came back as 430, so still in the normal range. So I'm doing something wrong, and I want to blame it on low testosterone. But hearing you say getting it higher in the normal range probably isn't the solution is a bummer.

    Thanks for looking.

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