Programming Starr 5x5 and back-off sets

[Jr_Geezer]

Background: 54 y.o., 193 lbs, 5'10". Working on SS for about a year, with slight variations in LP to account for recovery issues. When I got my squat and deadlift up to 320 or so, I really felt I needed a change in programming as the 3x5 program was really getting hard to recover from. I read through PP and settled on the Starr 5x5 program for squats and back-off sets for bench, press and deadlift, as recommended for post-novice older lifters in chapter 9.

I'm on the second 4-week cycle. Week I heavy squat day was

45 x 10
135 x 5
185 x 5
225 x 5
285 x 5
325 x 3

and light day (after two days rest) was the same, ending at the 285 weight.
Week II heavy day was the same except with 4 reps at 325. My logbook entry reads "Very heavy, almost failed on last rep."

Week III heavy day went pretty well so I started the next cycle at 330. As every work set felt very heavy, I decided to take longer rests between sets (8-10 minutes), but that didn't seem to help too much. I almost failed on the fifth rep on the Week III heavy day. I rested a bit and did one more rep at 330 to make up for the near failure.

So, on to the questions. To make the heavy days a bit more bearable, should I try a heavier final weight on the light days, more rest between sets or maybe start the cycle with two reps at the work weight instead of three, so there is an additional week for adapting to the weight? I'm also thinking that part of the issue is that I haven't been getting enough sleep recently for a variety of reasons, so I'll work on that as well. Or should I try a programming variation?

WRT to the back-off sets for the bench, press and deadlift, I'm also having some issue with my press, failing on my fifth rep of Week III:

45 x 5
65 x 3
95 x 2
110 x 2
125 x 5 (failed on fifth)
110 X 5 x 2

I was wondering if the back-off sets should be a bit higher weight, maybe 115 or 120 instead of 110 to more closely match the work set weight. Same with deadlift. With a work set of 330, I've been doing a back-off set at 300. Should I try 315 instead? Or is the problem the opposite, that the back-off sets are too high, interfering with my recovery? What is everyone's experience with choosing a weight for the final sets?

Thanks.

-RJP

[Keith]

You might check out this article if you havent seen it already.
Starting Strength: Article

I have/had my own struggles with early intermmediate programmg so I am not an expert. But you might want to swap out your heavy set of 5 for 1 or two sets of 3s. Going from 5s to 3s is a pretty big pyschological and physical relief and you can keep adding weight to the bar and handle increasingly heavier weights.

I am 45 and I have been thinking about programming as we age (looking forward to Baker and Sullivan's book!) but the conundrum for us, I think, is that as our training advances we need more volume but as we age our ability to tolerate volume decreases.

So my thinking now is that we need to try to keep intensity pretty high while we find a way to apply a dose of voluem we can recover from.

[slowmotion]

I'm going to follow this thread. I'm still trying out different ways to do the geezer program.

[Jr_Geezer]

You might check out this article if you havent seen it already.
Starting Strength: Article

I have/had my own struggles with early intermmediate programmg so I am not an expert. But you might want to swap out your heavy set of 5 for 1 or two sets of 3s. Going from 5s to 3s is a pretty big pyschological and physical relief and you can keep adding weight to the bar and handle increasingly heavier weights.

I am 45 and I have been thinking about programming as we age (looking forward to Baker and Sullivan's book!) but the conundrum for us, I think, is that as our training advances we need more volume but as we age our ability to tolerate volume decreases.

So my thinking now is that we need to try to keep intensity pretty high while we find a way to apply a dose of voluem we can recover from.

Thanks for the input, Keith. I did not see that article before and it does have some useful information. I might try that idea of breaking the 5 reps into two sets of 3.

-RJP

[Jr_Geezer]

I'm going to follow this thread.

Well, the thread has gotten 132 views so far and only Keith has supplied useful information so I don't know how useful it will be to follow it. :-) I'm wondering if I should cross-post this in the geezer forum.

-RJP

[MBasic]

post to Baker's forum upstairs....he seems friendly enough . . .

[Bryan Dobson]

Andy did a good job simplifying HLM in the latest practical programming.

my opinion keep it simple

heavy day 3setsx5 reps straight the hell accross.
light day 80% of heavy 3sets of 5
medium 90% same same.

drop enough weight so that 3sets accross is heavy but not to hard. i would say 295 or even 285 would work for you to start as a top set to start on heavy day. add 5-10 pounds a week , no rush. Sometimes to get stronger, we have to work more with submaximal weights.

[kessg]

Here's part 1 of a series from Andy Baker that I've found very helpful:


Simplifying the Heavy/Light/Medium System – Part 1: Introduction & Squats

As strength coaches, many of us were introduced to the concept of a “heavy-light-medium” training system by Bill Starr’s classic text The Strongest Shall Survive. Starr introduces the concept as being borrowed from the 1930’s from Mark Berry, who was himself a national champion weightlifter and prolific coach of the era. The concept was reintroduced to readers in Mark Rippetoe’s Practical Programming in 2006.

...

Simplifying the Heavy Light Medium System - Part 1: Introduction & Squats - Baker Strength Coaching

[slowmotion]

I'm doing a combination of the page 233 program and H/L/M with ascending sets.
I've found that a light 70% squat works the best for me on light day.
And on the press I'm trying out the Starr method with good result.
Also, I've stopped doing back offs on the deadlift.
So what works for one lift might not be so good on another lift.