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Thread: "keeping the body guessing"

  1. #1
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    Default "keeping the body guessing"

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    A good friend of mine actually broke a record in the APF 110kg raw division in 2013. He swears by rotating exercises and keeping your body "guessing" and i realize to most of the regulars here it is considered to be pretty much bro science(at least i think). That said im starting to think he is on to something because he has been strong since ive known him and continues to shatter his goals. Just wondering every bodies thoughts on westside like programming and could it be that it is even more legitimate than just the standard straight weight exercises normally promoted here. I understand why because it is simple and training should be kept simple but still there has to be something to it im not seeing. Any thoughts?

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    I wouldn't phrase it that way, but there is a reason people who know what they're talking about prescribe things like rotating rep ranges. If you train the same way all the time, it stands to reason your body will become accustomed to that stimulus and over time it becomes less effective.

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    O i get rotating rep ranges is a must but im referring to more of like max effort every single week on stuff like bamboo bar squat-rack pull-close grip safety bar squat etc. He does this every week and is non specific as you would ever see and he swears by it and obviously it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Larousse View Post
    A good friend of mine actually broke a record in the APF 110kg raw division in 2013. He swears by rotating exercises and keeping your body "guessing" and i realize to most of the regulars here it is considered to be pretty much bro science(at least i think). That said im starting to think he is on to something because he has been strong since ive known him and continues to shatter his goals. Just wondering every bodies thoughts on westside like programming and could it be that it is even more legitimate than just the standard straight weight exercises normally promoted here. I understand why because it is simple and training should be kept simple but still there has to be something to it im not seeing. Any thoughts?
    Some of the quarter squatters featured in the Quartersquatgang Instagram account are APF "record holders." But at any rate, I don't think this is specific enough. What do you mean when you refer to the "standard weight training" exercises promoted here? Squats, deadlifts, presses, etc.? Most of the intermediate and advanced lifters here see the value in accessory exercises, and there's a section on ancillary movements in the book, too. Rip has videos on RDLs, rack pulls, power cleans, lying tricep extensions, etc.

    Keeping the body "guessing" is definitely bro science, since your muscles only do one thing and wouldn't know whether one exercise or the other is causing it to work.

    Adjusting volume, intensity and frequency, like BenM mentioned, are the keys to getting stronger. And when you have weak or sticking points in the main barbell movements, you choose accessory exercises to work those weak areas, but even those exercises have to account for volume, intensity and frequency. Sometimes, people seem to have trouble doing the necessary strength work because they become gassed and tired, and so some conditioning has to be done.

    In terms of ancillary exercises, I've noticed that some people respond better to certain movements than others for a variety of reasons.

    I guess you can say that there's a huge guessing game to what is or isn't going to work, but I'd like to think that intelligent programming means intelligent guesses (i.e. I wouldn't quadruple my bench volume from one week to the next or spend an entire month only squatting singles).

    As far as my thoughts on Westside programming, one guy in my gym has paid for guided programming for a Westside "coach" and hasn't seen any meaningful gains in four months, and I'm under the impression that most of the Westside lifters were on PEDs, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcf View Post
    Some of the quarter squatters featured in the Quartersquatgang Instagram account are APF "record holders." But at any rate, I don't think this is specific enough. What do you mean when you refer to the "standard weight training" exercises promoted here? Squats, deadlifts, presses, etc.? Most of the intermediate and advanced lifters here see the value in accessory exercises, and there's a section on ancillary movements in the book, too. Rip has videos on RDLs, rack pulls, power cleans, lying tricep extensions, etc.

    Keeping the body "guessing" is definitely bro science, since your muscles only do one thing and wouldn't know whether one exercise or the other is causing it to work.

    Adjusting volume, intensity and frequency, like BenM mentioned, are the keys to getting stronger. And when you have weak or sticking points in the main barbell movements, you choose accessory exercises to work those weak areas, but even those exercises have to account for volume, intensity and frequency. Sometimes, people seem to have trouble doing the necessary strength work because they become gassed and tired, and so some conditioning has to be done.

    In terms of ancillary exercises, I've noticed that some people respond better to certain movements than others for a variety of reasons.

    I guess you can say that there's a huge guessing game to what is or isn't going to work, but I'd like to think that intelligent programming means intelligent guesses (i.e. I wouldn't quadruple my bench volume from one week to the next or spend an entire month only squatting singles).

    As far as my thoughts on Westside programming, one guy in my gym has paid for guided programming for a Westside "coach" and hasn't seen any meaningful gains in four months, and I'm under the impression that most of the Westside lifters were on PEDs, anyway.

    he is the deadlift record holder at this moment but yea man thats exactly how he trains...he just rotates different exercises and buys into the keep the body guessing ideology...he has done this for many years and is strong as shit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Larousse View Post
    O i get rotating rep ranges is a must but im referring to more of like max effort every single week on stuff like bamboo bar squat-rack pull-close grip safety bar squat etc. He does this every week and is non specific as you would ever see and he swears by it and obviously it works.
    Well, whatever works for him, I guess.

    When I said rotating rep ranges I was using that as an example; rotating exercises/movements is similar, but usually people do it with a plan so that they figure out what works. If he is being non specific about it then I guess so long as he is providing enough stimulus to the right areas to get stronger, he'll get stronger - but if he's just doing it willy nilly how does he know he's getting the best possible results?

    My guess is, as he's obviously got a fair bit of experience under his belt, he's figured out what works for him and there is less randomness to it than you think - even if he's just running on intuition. If it's working, it's working. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the best way to train and doesn't mean it'd necessarily work for someone else, and I don't think it's 'even more legitimate' than a simpler program. It's just horses for courses, man.

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    People always discount the conjugate system, or westside, by saying they use gear and they use the other gear. What they forget is :westside" has been around since guys were getting 15 pounds out of Inzer Blast shirts. As far as PED's, drugs won't make a bad program turn out as many great lifters as have come out of westside. I think some of you guys give drugs more credit, or blame, than they deserve. Don't read that as they don't do anything because that's not what I said.

    But, and this is a big but, very few raw lifters train that way. I don't know what all raw lifters do but I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who trains that way. Greene doesn't, the Lilliebridges don't, Tuscherer doesn't and I don't think any of the Russians that i am.familiar with. do. I don't know about other lifters from other countries but I doubt they do either. The conjugate system had its heyday from, I guess, the mid 90's to the mid 2000's but it's faded out a lot.

    I think that the biggest thing, assuming you have a solid program, is to truly believe it's going to work for you. If you hate doing nothing but the competition lifts, you're probably not going to do very well with Sheiko style training. If you think max effort days and box squats and chains and bands are stupid, you probably won't do well with conjugate training the way westside does it.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of "westside" but that doesn't mean it can't work for SOME people.

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    What better and simpler way to keep the body guessing that adding 2.5 lb every week?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenM View Post
    Well, whatever works for him, I guess.

    When I said rotating rep ranges I was using that as an example; rotating exercises/movements is similar, but usually people do it with a plan so that they figure out what works. If he is being non specific about it then I guess so long as he is providing enough stimulus to the right areas to get stronger, he'll get stronger - but if he's just doing it willy nilly how does he know he's getting the best possible results?

    My guess is, as he's obviously got a fair bit of experience under his belt, he's figured out what works for him and there is less randomness to it than you think - even if he's just running on intuition. If it's working, it's working. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the best way to train and doesn't mean it'd necessarily work for someone else, and I don't think it's 'even more legitimate' than a simpler program. It's just horses for courses, man.
    There's gotta be some intuition there, because OP makes it sound like his friend is lacking a lot of specificity in his training.

  10. #10
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    The simplified idea behind "muscle confusion" is efficiency. Your brain learns how to become as efficient as possible with a movement when it is doing that movement lots. So adjusting exercises to change how you train a muscle helps slow down the adaptation to ninja slack. Your brain doesn't want your body to waste energy if it can find a way around it.

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