The Umpteenth Bench Press Stall Thread on SS

[manveer]

Thought this was a pretty interesting video from Juggernaut on programming (~90 mins). Covers a lot of the discussion that's been going on in recent programming threads like this one:

[marcf]

Ah, thanks for the reminder that I need to finish watching that. I got an hour into it the first time around and thought, "Damn, this is fucking long."

[LimieJosh]

This conversation has presented some interesting ideas that are pertinent to me right now. My bench is ok – 315 at 6’2” and 200lbs bw, but my training of it has been really unproductive for several years now. I think that increase from 310 to 315 was about 2 years in the making, and it probably didn’t increase any more than that in the 3 or 4 years prior. Some of that is the two steps forward two steps back effect of old shoulder injuries, but it’s mostly just an utter failure to make intermediate bench programming work for me. I think this comment sums up much of my problems:

The first time I reset, I made the mistake of resetting a little too much (went down to 230) making small increments (5 pounds, then 2.5 pounds). All that did was cause me to accumulate fatigue all over again and stall at the exact same spot.

I feel like I am not getting what I am supposed to out of the volume stimulus. I start my progression at a weight I can handle and will allow to build up, and each week I find it easy, right up until the point when all of a sudden it isn’t an I start to have to miss reps. I don’t seem to be able to hit that sweet spot where the volume session is both challenging and progressable.
My history has gone something like this:

Texas Method – I ran this for years with no end of variations, on both the volume and intensity portions, but no matter how I structured it I would hit a wall where reps started being missed on the volume block around 255-260.

KUA – January of last year I started on Les’ KUA 4x4 plan (1 heavy set programmed in 4 consecutive 3 week mini cycles followed by a volume block increased on LP). I ran it as text book for a 12 week cycle, with a lighter day on Thursdays, typically inclines. I ran a second cycle with a similar set up, but with more volume on the volume block (6 sets), and ran into a wall at the same point.

HLM version 1 – I was convinced that the solution was more volume/frequency so switched to HLM to add a third day of pressing. This was HML utilizing exercise variation rather than loads, and with elements of KUA.

- Heavy: bench with a volume type set up (5x5, to 4x6 to 3x8 if needed).
- Medium: one set of bench (the heavy, undulating part of the KUA program) with some additional pressing.
- Light: lighter volume on incline.

HLM Version 2 – After the first 12 week cycle of the above in which I made no progress I started again, only with incline on M and press on L. I figured that was a more natural fit for the days and would allow me to push both harder. I just rounded off that 12 week cycle this week and while it was fun it was again no real progress. Volume had to switch from 5x5 to 4x6 at 255 and to get through 265 I had to go to 3x8. There was also no improvement in the max single attempt.

So, where does that leave me moving forward? Is the main mistake I’m making trying to LP the volume part of the set up? Would I be better served using more variation/undulation in the volume stimulus rather than just trying to LP it?

[marcf]

This conversation has presented some interesting ideas that are pertinent to me right now. My bench is ok – 315 at 6’2” and 200lbs bw, but my training of it has been really unproductive for several years now. I think that increase from 310 to 315 was about 2 years in the making, and it probably didn’t increase any more than that in the 3 or 4 years prior. Some of that is the two steps forward two steps back effect of old shoulder injuries, but it’s mostly just an utter failure to make intermediate bench programming work for me. I think this comment sums up much of my problems:

I feel like I am not getting what I am supposed to out of the volume stimulus. I start my progression at a weight I can handle and will allow to build up, and each week I find it easy, right up until the point when all of a sudden it isn’t an I start to have to miss reps. I don’t seem to be able to hit that sweet spot where the volume session is both challenging and progressable.
My history has gone something like this:

Texas Method – I ran this for years with no end of variations, on both the volume and intensity portions, but no matter how I structured it I would hit a wall where reps started being missed on the volume block around 255-260.

KUA – January of last year I started on Les’ KUA 4x4 plan (1 heavy set programmed in 4 consecutive 3 week mini cycles followed by a volume block increased on LP). I ran it as text book for a 12 week cycle, with a lighter day on Thursdays, typically inclines. I ran a second cycle with a similar set up, but with more volume on the volume block (6 sets), and ran into a wall at the same point.

HLM version 1 – I was convinced that the solution was more volume/frequency so switched to HLM to add a third day of pressing. This was HML utilizing exercise variation rather than loads, and with elements of KUA.

- Heavy: bench with a volume type set up (5x5, to 4x6 to 3x8 if needed).
- Medium: one set of bench (the heavy, undulating part of the KUA program) with some additional pressing.
- Light: lighter volume on incline.

HLM Version 2 – After the first 12 week cycle of the above in which I made no progress I started again, only with incline on M and press on L. I figured that was a more natural fit for the days and would allow me to push both harder. I just rounded off that 12 week cycle this week and while it was fun it was again no real progress. Volume had to switch from 5x5 to 4x6 at 255 and to get through 265 I had to go to 3x8. There was also no improvement in the max single attempt.

So, where does that leave me moving forward? Is the main mistake I’m making trying to LP the volume part of the set up? Would I be better served using more variation/undulation in the volume stimulus rather than just trying to LP it?

Gain 20 pounds bodyweight.

[LimieJosh]

I usually see people need ~10-20 quality bench sets per week to optimize progress beyond the novice phase. Some need a bit more (rarely) and some need a bit less but that's what my coaching data indicates. I usually start towards the bottom end of that range, slowly ratchet up over 3-6 weeks, deload when fatigue becomes prohibitive of further e1RM increases, and repeat or intensify depending on when the next comp or mock meet is scheduled. We don't use the same number of sets for weeks on end. That only works well for newer intermediates in my experience (SS definition of intermediate).

Would you mind fleshing this out a bit, Tom.

I would also like to add the 1 set of 5 on any lift and calling it a day is wasted opportunity to create a stimulus.
I can only think of a two instances where this will be sufficient:
1. Novices
2. Lifters who tolerate 1 set @10 efforts weekly without effect on their hormonal milieu (young guns and supplementers)

I wonder if there isnt a cohort effect in play given that the TM was developed (with the introduction of that once weekly all out single set) among a group of competitive weight lifters, a group who are largely self-selected for being able to perform all out efforts quite well. The rest of us might get some benefit out of trying to better translate our training loads to a 5RM or 1RM, but are likely not well served by basing so much of our training around it.

[Tom Narvaez]

Sure, here's a simple, somewhat TM-esque that does a good job of explaining what I'm talking about:

All days are some type of benching for this example

Week 1
Mon: 2x5, 1x5+ -- stop @9
Wed: 3x7
Fri: 3x9
Track e1RM on Monday AMRAP@9, track joint/tendon pain and motivation levels

Week 2, Add 2-3% to last week's weights
Mon: 2x4, 1x4+ @9
Wed: 4x6
Fri: 4x8
Did you feel recovered for Monday? If yes, did e1RM/performance increase? If yes, great. Try even more next week to further test thresholds. If yes, but e1RM didn't increase, give it another week or so to show meaningful improvements, but, if it doesn't, this may simple be a maintenance level dose of stress for you. You may want to consider starting with more work in the next cycle.

Did you feel recovered for Monday? If no, did e1RM/performance increase?, If yes, give yourself time to adapt by the end of the cycle. If you don't, you probably STARTED too high, but this is still a level that produces results for you so try to work up to it near the end of your next cycle. If no, e1RM did not increase, and even went down, you'll need to rule out transient factors like horrible sleep/diet but this is probably a level that isn't productive for you. It's probably too much.

Week 3, Add 2-3% to last week's weights
Mon: 2x3, 1x3+@9
Wed: 5x5
Fri: 5x7
Ask the exact same questions as above.

Week 4, Add another 2-3%
Mon: 2x2, 1x2+
Wed: 6x4
Fri: 6x6
Ask the same questions as above. Some people will start regressing right around here and that is the time for a deload. Take note of when the performance decrease started because the combination of the length of the cycle and the volume levels in the previous week was enough to cause significant accumulated fatigue. That level of volume is probably appropriate for the last week of your next cycle.

Week 5, add another 2-3%
Mon: 2x1, 1x1+
Wed: 7x3
Fri: 7x5

Week 6:
Deload



I've run this exact program and stuff very similar to it before. The key is that you need to find a framework that works for you in terms of frequency. Most on this board, the vast majority really, will be benching 2-3x per week. I know lots of RTS templates have 4x per week but they use a shit load of variations and many of those significantly lighten the loads (tempo benches etc). So, within your framework of 2-3x week, generally determined by the combination of a) joints/tendons staying happy and b) actually being able to overload in each session, gradually add 1-2 sets per week over a 4-6 week cycle until you've got a good handle on your volume tolerances. Start each cycle around the minimum effective dose of volume and, over 4-6 weeks, ramp up to around the maximum recoverable dose, deload at around your maintenance dose, and repeat. Periodize to create the correct effect for competition, other goals, etc.

[John Hanley]

Just do density blocks

[Tom Narvaez]

fuck you, hanley and your fucking density blocks, too

[Praetorian]

Thanks for the example Tom, I'm sure this will be really helpful for a lot us. Would this person be pressing as well, and if so, how would that fit with the above?

[Tom Narvaez]

Depends how important pressing is to them. If it is really important, i would swap the Wednesday bench with an overhead movement AND add a second press on a fourth day which would likely be mon, wed, fri and sat. If it's just an accessory, treat it as such.