Reply With QuoteStop doing keto, eat carbs.
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Edging out some squat LP as an advanced(?) novice while cutting weight possible?
Hello guys,
I 've been training since late September, though with at least three 2-3 week vacations and the necessary deload after that. During that period I was not counting calories, but I was getting more of less 200gr of protein (plus 70gr extra protein/500ml of milk on training days) and a caloric surplus. I am 181cm and 117kg now and based on the US Navy fact calculator and picture comparisons around 28-30% fat. I have started a 2000 calorie keto diet around a month ago (lost 5kgs so far), making sure to get 200gr of protein (and the shake on training days), just after a 3 week vacation. Before that I did 157.5kg for 3x5 and up to that point I had been adding 2.5kgs almost every time that I went to the gym.
When I came back, I did my 10% deload, because I sure as hell couldn't even look at 157.5kg without crumbling under the weight, but so far it has been a real struggle to get back to that weight. I have been adding 1.25kgs for the past few sessions, but I am still not able to do 3x5, which is perfectly understandable given that I am cutting and I don't have the energy to recover enough between sessions. Yesterday I lifted 156.5 for 5,3,1 reps, but I felt I would have possibly been able to do a 3x3, which is mentioned in PPST as one of possible ways to get some juice out of a LP.
Surprisingly this has not affected my deadlift progression, I am still adding 2.5kg on the bar, every time and should hit the much celebrated 182.5kgs (405lbs) in the next 3-4 weeks. My bench is at 92.5kg and similarly unaffected. The press, well...I hate the press. I have been struggling to break 65kgs for the past few months with a few deloads.
Anyway, my question, and given that at this point my main goal is to reach a healthier 15% fat percentage, what would be the best course of action to get that last juice out of the LP? Would you suggest going for the 3x3? Would you suggest moving to an intermediate programm as outlined in PPST? I am also trying to improve my technique, especially keeping my back angle constant and low enough and tightening my core.
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Stop doing keto, eat carbs.
Last edited by ad3000; 05-27-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Technically, 200 g protein wouldn't be "keto" but you probably mean low carb. I don't think low carb is good for training, and 2000 calories seems low for a guy who weighs 117 kg. If you want to lose weight fast, then expect your lifts to suffer. If you want to lose weight at a reasonable pace while training hard, you might be able to, but probably not without carbs.
FWIW, I have been dieting fairly steadily since August of last year and have lost about 40 pounds, but I started around 17 kg lighter than you are now and didn't get all the way down to 2000 calories until more recently (10 cal per pound, which is a pretty steep deficit is ~2570 for you). I always kept my carbs around 200 g (35 of which were fiber).
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Why would that be better, given my caloric deficit?Originally Posted by ad3000
At any rate I would be very, very hesitant to abandon low-carb/keto because in all the years I have been trying to lose weight, it has proven the only way I can control my appetite and lose weight. I have a high insulin sensitivity and at one point my blood values were pre-diabetic and would have had to go on medication if I hadn't started a low-carb diet.
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Well, from what I gather carbs are a better choice of macro-nutrient for strength training. Jordan recently summed up why this may be the case and his points were: decreased calories overall, decreased anaerobic fuel sources, alteration of intramuscular hydration and, maybe, some intrinsic fatigue modulating properties of carbohydrates.
However, given your issues it may be appropriate for you and, hence, your training may suffer to some degree. This could also be compounded by the fact you are eating quite low calories for the start of a diet.
How much were you eating before? Seems like it was a drastic reduction in calories, why did you not start out more moderate?
Last edited by ad3000; 05-28-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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Well, since I gaining weight, I assume I was eating around maintenance (2700 calories at my starting weight). Now I am somewhere between 2000 and 2400 calories depending on the day. To be honest, I am happy with my diet, because it is so satiating I can actually follow it. I will try to add some carbs pre-workout though and see how that works out.
I am more interested in the programming aspect though. I feel I still have the energy to continue on the LP if I lower my reps to 3x3 for squats (the other lifts are unaffected, at least not noticeably, recovery is good) but I am not sure if I should do that or move to a true intermediate program.
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Low Carb NOT Ketogenic
As you stated, high protein does not equate to Keto Diet.
A Ketogenic Diet is high fat (65% plus), low carbohydrate (50 gram or less) and low to moderate protein (15% up to 25%) of daily consumption.
[quote}I don't think low carb is good for training, and 2000 calories seems low for a guy who weighs 117 kg. If you want to lose weight fast, then expect your lifts to suffer. If you want to lose weight at a reasonable pace while training hard, you might be able to, but probably not without carbs.[/quote]
Carbohydrates Specific to Sports
Research the amount of carbohydrate intake needed is dependent on the sport.
1) Phosphagen Energy System: This system is dependent on ATP, not glucose (carbohydrates). Thus, high carbohydrate intake is not necessary for these athletes. Examples: Powerlifting, Olympic Weightlifting, Sprinters, etc.
2) Glycolytic Energy System: Carbohydrates are necessary for sports of this nature. Example: Soccer, Basketball, etc.
3) Oxidative Energy System: Carbohydrates are not needed. The primary source of fuel for sports like this is body fat/ketones.
ImpressiveFWIW, I have been dieting fairly steadily since August of last year and have lost about 40 pounds, but I started around 17 kg lighter than you are now and didn't get all the way down to 2000 calories until more recently (10 cal per pound, which is a pretty steep deficit is ~2570 for you). I always kept my carbs around 200 g (35 of which were fiber).
Losing 40 lbs is impressive. You have a good handle on what you are doing.
200 grams of carbohydrates (as you know) is still fairly low. You're like Goldilocks. You found the just right number of carbohydrates that works for you.
Kenny Croxdale
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Not Necessarily
The belief that high carbohydrate intake is needed for any and all sports isn't necessary.
The research (as noted in my previous post) regarding Energy System used in specific sports is the determinate factor.
Breaking It DownJordan recently summed up why this may be the case and his points were: decreased calories overall, decreased anaerobic fuel sources, alteration of intramuscular hydration and, maybe, some intrinsic fatigue modulating properties of carbohydrates.
1) Decreased Calories: This is what matters most in decreasing body fat/weight.
2) Decreased Anaerobic Fuel: The fuel for Strength is ATP, not glucose.
3) Intramuscular Hydration: This is one of the concerns of individual on Ketogenic Diets, since carbohydrates increase hydration.
Research by Dr Jake Wilson (The Effects of Ketogenic Dieting on Body Composition, Strength, Power, and Hormonal Profiles in Resistance Training Males) demonstrated that the body eventually adapts to very low carbohydrate intake. The end result is hydration levels return to the same level on a Kegogenic Diet, as individual on high carbohydrate diets, for the most part.
To circumvent the initial decrease in hydration on a Ketogenic Diet consuming a bullion (high sodium) beverage and increasing salt intake took care of that issue (Research: Drs Jeff Volek/Stephen Phinney, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance.
Decrease CaloriesThis could also be compounded by the fact you are eating quite low calories for the start of a diet.
How much were you eating before? Seems like it was a drastic reduction in calories, why did you not start out more moderate?
As you stated, an initial decrease in calories, especially if it's dramatic will produce a decrease in performance.
Research by Dr's John Ivy and Layne Norton found that around a 20% decrease in caloric intake allowed for a decrease in body fat/weight with less trauma, strength loss.
Decrease In Body Weight
A decrease in strength usually occurs with a decrease in body weight; that is why they have Weight Classes in certain sports.
Kenny Croxdale
Last edited by Kenny Crox; 05-31-2017 at 05:41 AM.
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Weight Gain
A surplus of calories is the reason for a weight gain. The optimal method for decreasing body fat/weight is to decrease your caloric intake approximately 20%.
This is one of the keys for maintaining a weight loss diet; finding something you are happy with.To be honest, I am happy with my diet, because it is so satiating I can actually follow it.
[quote]I will try to add some carbs pre-workout though and see how that works out.[quote]
You may or may NOT need to increase carbohydrates. That is dependent on you training program.
Secondly, when carbohydrate intake is low and protein intake is as high as your, gluconeogenesis occurs.
Gluconeogenesis means your body converts amino acids into glucose. Thus, taking in carbohydrate prior to training is most will do little for you.
Without more information and detail on your specific program, it hard for anyone to make recommendations.I am more interested in the programming aspect though. I feel I still have the energy to continue on the LP if I lower my reps to 3x3 for squats (the other lifts are unaffected, at least not noticeably, recovery is good) but I am not sure if I should do that or move to a true intermediate program.
With that said, one of the fundamental principles of increasing strength and/or size is Periodization Training. This involves Deloading more than 10% and changing exercises.
Changing an exercise can be as simple as going from a Wide Grip Bench Press to a Narrow Grip Bench Press, Narrow Stance High Bar Squat to Wide Stance Low Bar Squat, Conventional Deadlift to Sumo Deadlift.
Think of the above exercises as Ice Cream. Changing your grip width in the Bench Press or foot stand in the Squat or Deadlift is similar to going from having Vanilla Ice Cream to Chocolate. They are both Ice Cream but are different.
Kenny Croxdale
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