Tabata on a Treadmill

[klh]

I want to share my experience with around 10 workouts over the past three weeks or so. To recap, Tabata prescribed 8 intervals of 20 seconds work, 10 seconds rest. Tabata's original experiments used a stationary bike. But I don't like the bike, and would find it hard to maintain consistent speed. Similarly, running sprints outside would tempt me to burn out on the first few intervals and then slack off on the rest. Instead, I learned how to use the treadmill from Fit (Kilgore-Hartman-Lascek). The treadmill is ideal, because it forces you to maintain a planned pace, and allows incremental adjustment.

The incline is key. Following Kilgore-Hartman-Lascek, you want to use your "aspirational" mile speed with an incline of 8-12 degrees. I started at 7 degrees, have been inching up by half a degree if I feel good, and just did 9.5 degrees. The treadmill works well, because once it is moving, you can just grab the armrails to hop on and off. For some reason, every girlfriend has been scared to do this, but if you have the upper body strength to do one dip then it is easy to grab the rails and step your feet to the sides.

A reasonable mile speed is quite slow for a 20-second sprint. But the incline starts to gas you quickly. The first work interval is nothing, and I take only 4 breaths per 10 seconds. Then the second work interval gets me surprisingly winded, because I have not completely caught my breath. Each successive interval feels harder, because you have not cumulatively recovered. Your legs are always fresh, but you just can't get enough oxygen. I end up taking around 9-10 breaths per 10 seconds on the final work intervals.

At the end of the 4th interval, you should be seriously doubting whether you can do all 8. At the end of the 8th, you should be falling on the ground and hoping not to vomit.

Exactly. I think the 5th work interval is the worst, because it feels like you cannot possibly sustain the increases in exertion. Fortunately, they do not feel much worse after the 5th one. I start mentally bargaining in the middle, setting a goal of three minutes (6 intervals). If I get halfway through the 7th work interval then I will finish the last 10 seconds of it. And then after a 10-second rest, I will do the last work interval. Tabata workouts are brutal; I think I know what getting waterboarded feels like. I can't complete a Tabata workout on the day after lifting. I will try to stick with them if I make progress, but am not sure how long I can tolerate them.

[chrisd]

I hate treadmills for sprints. If you set it fast enough to go all out, you either have to quit the set when it gets hard or get spat out in a complex heap. If you are only running for 20 seconds how much space do you need?

[MBasic]

I want to share my experience with around 10 workouts over the past three weeks or so. To recap, Tabata prescribed 8 intervals of 20 seconds work, 10 seconds rest. Tabata's original experiments used a stationary bike. But I don't like the bike, and would find it hard to maintain consistent speed. Similarly, running sprints outside would tempt me to burn out on the first few intervals and then slack off on the rest. Instead, I learned how to use the treadmill from Fit (Kilgore-Hartman-Lascek). The treadmill is ideal, because it forces you to maintain a planned pace, and allows incremental adjustment.

The incline is key. Following Kilgore-Hartman-Lascek, you want to use your "aspirational" mile speed with an incline of 8-12 degrees. I started at 7 degrees, have been inching up by half a degree if I feel good, and just did 9.5 degrees. The treadmill works well, because once it is moving, you can just grab the armrails to hop on and off. For some reason, every girlfriend has been scared to do this, but if you have the upper body strength to do one dip then it is easy to grab the rails and step your feet to the sides.

A reasonable mile speed is quite slow for a 20-second sprint. But the incline starts to gas you quickly. The first work interval is nothing, and I take only 4 breaths per 10 seconds. Then the second work interval gets me surprisingly winded, because I have not completely caught my breath. Each successive interval feels harder, because you have not cumulatively recovered. Your legs are always fresh, but you just can't get enough oxygen. I end up taking around 9-10 breaths per 10 seconds on the final work intervals.



Exactly. I think the 5th work interval is the worst, because it feels like you cannot possibly sustain the increases in exertion. Fortunately, they do not feel much worse after the 5th one. I start mentally bargaining in the middle, setting a goal of three minutes (6 intervals). If I get halfway through the 7th work interval then I will finish the last 10 seconds of it. And then after a 10-second rest, I will do the last work interval. Tabata workouts are brutal; I think I know what getting waterboarded feels like. I can't complete a Tabata workout on the day after lifting. I will try to stick with them if I make progress, but am not sure how long I can tolerate them.

sounds like a mess.

Tabata is supposed to balls out every time.
So each round would have slightly less pace . . .AND would likely be all over the place in that regard.
(would be hard to "pre-plan" the paces and incline out ahead of time, unless you are guessing way on the safe side)

Treadmill take a few seconds to get up to speed and then drop down in speed.
I would just sprint outside . . . balls to the wall, each time.

Use an incline somewhere or another.

I bet after the third work period, you are probably going pretty slow. . . .that is, beat to fuck

[klh]

you either have to quit the set when it gets hard or get spat out in a complex heap.

I think Rippetoe would call this "motivation". :-)

sounds like a mess.
Treadmill take a few seconds to get up to speed and then drop down in speed.

You get it up to full speed, and then jump on and off. Here is a demonstration: Chad Johnson runs 24 mph on treadmill - NFL Videos.

Tabata is supposed to balls out every time.
So each round would have slightly less pace . . . AND ... would be hard to "pre-plan" the paces and incline out ahead of time

Tabata mentioned 170% of VO2max, but also wrote: "When they could complete more than nine sets of the exercise, exercise intensity was increased by 11 W." So Tabata targeted a specific constant intensity at each workout. Alternatively, you could simply lower the incline by half a degree after a difficult work interval.

[chrisd]

Tabata mentioned 170% of VO2max, but also wrote: "When they could complete more than nine sets of the exercise, exercise intensity was increased by 11 W." So Tabata targeted a specific constant intensity at each workout. Alternatively, you could simply lower the incline by half a degree after a difficult work interval.

He did, but only because he had to put some kind of measurable metric into the test. To determine the workload for 170% VO2 max, they already had to know the VO2 max for each subject, actual, not estimated.

Tabata did not design the workout. He tested a workout designed by a sports coach. A coach who trained short circuit speed skaters. A sport in which about fifteen seconds of max effort is followed by a few seconds of coasting, for a set number of laps. The full training protocol that was tested in Tokyo included one steady state training session per week, so now you have to go jogging.

Professor Tabata's original subjects were Olympic level athletes. Other people leaping on the Tabata bandwagon claim amazing improvements in a short time. they do not apply their training systems to Olympic level athletes. I suspect that improvements gained over a three week period demonstrate a well known effect.

[klh]

He did, but only because he had to put some kind of measurable metric into the test. To determine the workload for 170% VO2 max, they already had to know the VO2 max for each subject, actual, not estimated.

Tabata ... tested a workout designed by a sports coach ... who trained short circuit speed skaters ... in which about fifteen seconds of max effort is followed by a few seconds of coasting, for a set number of laps. training protocol ... included one steady state training session per week, so now you have to go jogging.

...I suspect that improvements gained over a three week period demonstrate a well known effect.

Some background is: https://www.acefitness.org/certified...abataStudy.pdf.

To summarize your good points, and others:

1) The workout was designed for a very specific sport.
2) Tabata's contribution was merely to show aerobic and anaerobic gains from brief, intense workouts.
3) Beginners would probably make progress on almost any workout.

The main relevance is that short, intense cardio workouts can be productive. They probably interfere less with less strength training than extensive jogging would.

[chrisd]

Some background is: https://www.acefitness.org/certified...abataStudy.pdf.

To summarize your good points, and others:

1) The workout was designed for a very specific sport.
2) Tabata's contribution was merely to show aerobic and anaerobic gains from brief, intense workouts.
3) Beginners would probably make progress on almost any workout.

The main relevance is that short, intense cardio workouts can be productive. They probably interfere less with less strength training than extensive jogging would.

Extensive jogging might. However, if we are talking about an intermediate strength trainee who has done nothing but lift for the whole of his LP, he will not be doing extensive jogging. If he does he will regret it. The jogging is in reference to the once a week steady state session that was in the original Tabata test protocol and which everyone conveniently ignores.

If we are talking about a novice, then he is violating the LP protocol and the wrath of Rip will descend upon him and his gains will wither.

Anyway.

My point is that Tabata has been touted as the new wonder program that does everything for you in just five minutes three times a week.

"Lose fat while you sleep with the wonders of EPOC!!!". You do anyway unless you are on a glucose drip.

Besides. I used the Tabata protocol for three months and gained nothing apart form the ability to pedal an exercise bike at a higher resistance. I contend that anyone who exhibits phenomenal gains from using this system was so disgustingly unfit to start with that anything would have worked for them.

[klh]

I used the Tabata protocol for three months and gained nothing apart from the ability to pedal an exercise bike at a higher resistance.

I did Tabata running sprints for a few months (1-3 times per week). I then ran 10+ miles with hardly any other training for the proceeding year or so.

I have never run 10 miles. :-(

After barely completing 10 degrees once, I failed on my next two workouts at 10 degrees. But I felt better and barely completed 10 degrees again today.

Maybe some of my gain from 7 degrees to 10 degrees is aerobic. But the main distinction of the Tabata study was the longer anaerobic performance at 170 percent of VO2max. In other words, you are not recovered, but keep exercising anyway. It reminds me of getting my VO2max measured. The VO2 graph actually plateaued a minute or so before I voluntarily quit. So I was feeling terrible due to oxygen debt, not due to higher oxygen processing. The Tabata protocol was designed to train you to endure this terrible zone.

I don't know how much of the improvement is physical adaptation, through improved processing of glycogen, improved buffering of lactic acid, or whatever. But some of it might be mental, learning your limits, learning psychological tricks, or becoming less of a pussy. Maybe I would have improved by taking painful ice baths, eating hot chili peppers, or listening to terrible music.

[chrisd]

I have never run 10 miles. :-(

After barely completing 10 degrees once, I failed on my next two workouts at 10 degrees. But I felt better and barely completed 10 degrees again today.

Could be time to move up the programming. You may be out of the easy gains phase.

Maybe some of my gain from 7 degrees to 10 degrees is aerobic. But the main distinction of the Tabata study was the longer anaerobic performance at 170 percent of VO2max. In other words, you are not recovered, but keep exercising anyway.

That's pretty much the definition of any interval system. If you are recovered, it isn't an interval, it's a repeat. Intervals at any level are supposed to have you working at a rate that can't be sustained over the whole exercise period, but keep you in the higher state so that you get more stimulus at that level. The ratio of work to rest changes with the length of the interval. Intervals of in the order of a few minutes can be done on a one to one basis for time, kilometer intervals for instance.

It reminds me of getting my VO2max measured. The VO2 graph actually plateaued a minute or so before I voluntarily quit. So I was feeling terrible due to oxygen debt, not due to higher oxygen processing. The Tabata protocol was designed to train you to endure this terrible zone.

It is indeed horrible. I guess you learn that you are not actually going to die. You may want to. I think we can agree that the second to last interval is the worst.

I don't know how much of the improvement is physical adaptation, through improved processing of glycogen, improved buffering of lactic acid, or whatever. But some of it might be mental, learning your limits, learning psychological tricks, or becoming less of a pussy. Maybe I would have improved by taking painful ice baths, eating hot chili peppers, or listening to terrible music.

Specificity, I guess. Train with limited recovery time and adapt to limited recovery time. ice baths, chilli peppers and terrible music are all sources of stress and have been shown to improve bodily systems by encouraging stress adaptation.

This could be the next big thing. Cryotabachilliracketercise(T). Eight rounds. Eat a scotch bonnet chilli pepper, 20 seconds of hard kettlebell work (because functional), jump in an ice bath for ten seconds and repeat while listening to this

[Chebass88]

I did them for a while back in 2010 when I was attempting to follow "cross fit endurance". And then I found IGX and learned that most of the workouts were designed by some asshole who never finished races.

I don't think I did them long enough to see a good effect, especially since I was doing all sorts of other nonsense at the same time (cross fit, strongliffs 5x5, etc. )