Heavy-Light Split vs HLM

[Euby]

Assuming that an individual can work either program with proper vigor, do you guys think one of these provides better progress than the other? I'm referring to a 4-day upper/lower split using a H-L approach vs a 3-day per week HLM.

[manveer]

I'll take a stab: HLM would be better over the long term since the frequency and submaximal volume would be higher.

[Eric Larousse]

i think it would be about the same TBH

[Euby]

I'm thinking the results would be about the same also, assuming you just did the basic 4 big lifts (squat, dead, press, and bench) on each program. But then again, maybe that additional medium day in the HLM adds more volume which would promote more gains, whether it be strength, mass or a combination of the two.

In practical application though, the split would allow for more accessory work for many, due to the short workouts on the main lifts, so you could argue that it might provide better results if the same accessory work couldn't be done in an HLM format. I know for me, the HLM is great but I feel more cumulative fatigue on an HLM, which leads me to believe I'm working harder over the long haul. That might mean more gains, but I have very little time for accessory work after a 90 minute workout. I've only experimented with a split, and I felt generally much fresher throughout the week, so I started adding in accessories performed close to failure (LTE, EZ Curl, CGB, etc) and suddenly I was reminded of my younger days on those bodybuilding routines. I was very fatigued so it felt like that approach would work better for a power-building type approach.

[Euby]

So in thinking about this some more, I'm still not sure. I've been reading PPST3 and BP40 on these two. In BP40 the section on H/L Split is fairly brief, though it the authors speak favorably for it. The suggestion there is to use something like 4 sets of 5, with the first being maximal, followed by 2-3 sets across at 5% reduction to get in volume. That is for heavy day only of course.

I'm just wondering b/c at 45 years old, the medium day for me always feels the toughest. Light day is tough because I'm fatigued of course, but I've only had 1 day of rest when I do the light day. The Medium day is tough just because the weights are closer to my heavy weights, and I just don't know that it is doing much. I'm wondering if H/L would be better, since I could get an extra day of rest before doing the light day. It would also allow a heavier weight to be used on light day, albeit with less volume, and then you'd get a full 3 days rest before hitting your heavy day again.

I know ultimately I just need to give a H/L Split a good 3 month run to see how it works for me. I suppose I was just hoping others might chime in with their own experiences. The main thing I enjoy about HLM is that I only have to lift 3 days a week. I love lifting and would do it every day if I could, but with work/family obligations it's just not practical to lift more then 3-4 days a week.

I think I'm going to give H/L a run starting next week.

[Charlie Davies]

My problem with H/L splits is that I hurt myself a lot. (male, 51)

It tends to become a H/H 4-day split, -- heavy bench day, heavy squat day, heavy press day, heavy deadlift day.
Plus chins and dips 2x/week, it's hard on my shoulders.

Currently on HLM and like it better.
Since I'm squatting and pressing 3x/week I can restrain myself from going really hard more than once per week. And I'm keeping accessory work to a minimum and the M/L sessions short.
I'm hoping this will lead to more consistent progress and less injury.

If you are doing H/L to get better recovery, I guess my advice would be to not make my mistake of going too heavy on light day, and not piling on too much accessory work.

[Euby]

CWD - thanks for your comments. I'm curious about your experience since H/L should only work the shoulders directly twice per week, once heavy and once light. HLM would be 3x per week, with the addition of an even heavier "medium" day added. It sounds like by your admission that you just didn't make the light days light enough, and then added too many accessories on top of that such that it aggravated your shoulder. Is that a fair description?

I used to have bad shoulder problems when I was younger and thought I wanted to be a body builder. Excessive pressing and bench, always with an extremely wide grip, etc. I've not had any shoulder issues using SS principles. I'd like to keep it that way. My accessory lifts will be limited on either H/L or HLM. My concern is getting enough stimulus on H/L at 2x per week to make progress. I feel like the HLM is on the threshold of being a bit more than is necessary, though not quite enough to be deleterious.

[Charlie Davies]

You are correct -- my problems with H/L are due to my own screwups, and are not very likely to affect others.

With HLM, I start the L,M workouts with a bit of residual DOMS. This helps remind me not to push for PRs.

With either program, we need to keep most working sets sub-maximal. I'm not good at that part, but I'm trying to get better.

[Euby]

With either program, we need to keep most working sets sub-maximal. I'm not good at that part, but I'm trying to get better.

Yeah, I agree with that part. Not sure if you have the BP40 book, but for H/L programming it suggests to do one set at a heavy weight (not necessarily a true 5RM), and then strip about 5% off for 2-3 more sets to get a little volume. That's what I think I'm going to try. Thanks for your input!

[Eric Larousse]

i just finished garage gym warrior(it worked)

Also I am now starting a little more aggressive HLM like this

day 1
Heavy squat 85x4-6 back off 75%x3x5-8, 90x2-4 back off 80%x3x4-6 95x1-3 back off 85x3x3-5)rotated weekly
heavy bench same
chins

day 2
power cleans
heavy press
light squat i do about -10%for 2-3x5

day 3
heavy deadlift same except I go 70,75,80% for minimum reps of the heavy day
medium squat same as deadlift protocol
chins

so its a good bit of Amrap@10 sets but I got this idea of of Andy.