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Thread: Why do no other strength coaches use the novice, intermediate, advanced model?

  1. #1
    reygunz Guest

    Default Why do no other strength coaches use the novice, intermediate, advanced model?

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    I was having a discussion on another forum (I have too much time on my hands right now) about how a novice should train. I was arguing for high intensity linear progression. The opposing argument was for higher volume linear periodization. (It pretty much turned into SSLP vs 5/3/1 for Beginners or something called nsuns531lp.). After some discussion (more like arguing), it was brought up that Mark Rippetoe simply made up the novice, intermediate, advanced model, and that beginners should simply opt for a less aggressive program to ensure that the mindset would be right for the rest of the training career. Now I obviously disagree with them, but are there any other associations or coaches that use the novice, intermediate, advanced model? What about other coaches like Chad Wesley Smith (correct me if I'm wrong) who advocate that beginners need high volume with many exercises?

  2. #2
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    I don't know. Most likely because they've never seen the argument as to why we use this model and furthermore they haven't designed programming according to these models to confirm that it is by and large accurate. I say "by and large" because the lines between novices/intermediates/advanced athletes can get quite blurry. I don't know much about CWS other than he is a damn strong lifter, surrounded by damn strong lifters, and he seems to me to take a fairly analytical / thoughtful / intelligent approach to training so I don't automatically dismiss his opinions. I'd be a fool to at least not hear out his reasoning and experiences. All I know is that if someone is capable of progressing 3x/week on a lift with minimal exercise selection, it's a tough sell that they should (1) slow down their progression (2) add complexity when simple works.

  3. #3
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    CWS does use the same classifications if you look into this further. They actually subscribe to the theory that a beginner needs more exercises and then as you advance you get more specific. This is common among several powerlifters and Coaches that I know that they like to build a hypertrophy base first because the theory is this helps you fill out your optimal weight class faster then eventually you start doing block training where you have a block dedicated to hypertrophy then strength etc. I don't like that personally but obviously it works for them. If you try to read every experts advice on training theory you will confuse yourself TBH trying to apply it all.

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    I have read through CWS's books, he doesn't dismiss LP at all. He specifically states that a newer lifter can progress much faster than a more seasoned lifter, and has made no preference for what someone does as a novice; his main clientele are almost exclusively late intermediate and advanced competitive lifters so that's where he spends his time. His definition of an intermediate is more along the lines of someone who has been lifting for a year or more, and at that stage he favors doing linear periodization with ~3 month high volume / lower intensity hypertrophy blocks followed by ~2 month low volume / high intensity strength blocks as his opinion is that the fastest way to increase an intermediates lifts is to pack more muscle on their frame. But obviously, this has nothing to do with the novice phase.

    As for your debate on SS vs 5/3/1 vs nsuns531, really each program is meant for a different lifter, SS is meant for a beginner that wants to get as strong as possible as fast as possible, nsuns is more of a beginner body builder program, and 5/3/1 for beginners is somewhere in the middle of the two with a bit more of a focus on all around strength, size, and conditioning for athletes. It isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison, unless you have the context of a specific individual with a specific goal set in mind you really can't really accurately compare them.

  5. #5
    reygunz Guest

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    So it would be safe to say that the majority of coaches haven't taken the time to observe the novice effect or just chopped it up to "beginner gains" or whatever the bro calls it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by reygunz View Post
    I was having a discussion on another forum [...] It pretty much turned into SSLP vs 5/3/1 for Beginners or something called nsuns531lp
    This isn't an answer to your question, but I take it you're a Redditor? If so, I would caution you that the hive mind is no less prevalent in r/fitness than anywhere else on the site. While 4 years ago SS and SL5x5 were the Gospel, today they have actually been removed from the beginner Wiki in favor of things like Grayskull LP and various user-created LPs e.g. nsuns. If you aren't preaching the flavor of the month, you're in for a lot of frustration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwilson625 View Post
    This isn't an answer to your question, but I take it you're a Redditor? If so, I would caution you that the hive mind is no less prevalent in r/fitness than anywhere else on the site. While 4 years ago SS and SL5x5 were the Gospel, today they have actually been removed from the beginner Wiki in favor of things like Grayskull LP and various user-created LPs e.g. nsuns. If you aren't preaching the flavor of the month, you're in for a lot of frustration.
    Yeah I get a giggle out of the reddit fitness forum sometimes. It's a forum full of beginners pretending they're experts and giving advice to other beginners. It's a recipe for disaster. I love learning new things, so I'm always looking for new information, but I don't go to internet forums for it; I have a set of coaches that I trust that have proven themselves as experts in their field through years of hard work (obviously since I'm here Andy and Rip are two of them) that I listen to. I pretty much try to block out all of the other noise out; I most certainly do not listen to random forum posters or self-proclaimed YouTube fitness experts, and I would definitely advise anyone else to be wary of this as well.

  8. #8
    reygunz Guest

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    Eric and StrengthEngineer, Thanks for the insight. It all makes sense with the perspectives now put in place.

    Wilson, Yes I was on reddit arguing with members of r/weightroom. They had SS and SL in their novice section in the sidebar for a while. After arguing with the hive, as you put it, I was surprised to see that they had removed the programs, although I should have expected it. No worries, though, I'm about to be busy again, so I won't have time to argue with redditors, which is good for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reygunz View Post
    Eric and StrengthEngineer, Thanks for the insight. It all makes sense with the perspectives now put in place.

    Wilson, Yes I was on reddit arguing with members of r/weightroom. They had SS and SL in their novice section in the sidebar for a while. After arguing with the hive, as you put it, I was surprised to see that they had removed the programs, although I should have expected it. No worries, though, I'm about to be busy again, so I won't have time to argue with redditors, which is good for me.
    Yeah, keep in mind that on Reddit the primary demographic are people that want to look jacked, and while they may say they care about strength it's a distant second. There's a phrase I use a lot at work (obviously, I'm an engineer) that goes "if you give the average person the choice between a Ferrari with a Volkswagen engine, or a Volkswagen with a Ferrari engine, they will choose the Ferrari with a VW engine every time." SS is a program that's made to build a Ferrari engine, but your average dude at the gym (or Reddit) doesn't really care about the engine and no matter how much they may say they do, the truth is that they care more about the appearance of said engine than whether it's actually there or not, if you catch my drift.

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    starting strength coach development program
    This is 100% true. That is a great line. I may steal it.

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