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Thread: Volume sensitivity for older lifters

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwd View Post
    Agree with all that. I'm doing HLM with a 3-week cycle of 8s, 5s, 3s. Seems to be working.

    Anyway my point was that I:
    * read Barbell Prescription and feared volume, as I'm old-ish
    * read about RPE programming and noticed they prescribe a *lot* of volume and frequency but at low RPEs (7s, 8s, 9s)
    * realized I go to RPE 9/10 way too often
    * tried more volume while avoiding RPE >9 and it seems to work for me

    Maybe this supports Baraki's position over Baker's. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something, or not typical. Just my experience.
    Again, I am finding myself agreeing with your comments. The only thing I'd say differently is with regard to your last statement about Baraki vs Baker or whatever someone wants to call it. Everything I've read of Andy's, and I have bought all his programs and been a member of his Barbell Club for a short time, is that he recommends cycling deloads pretty often (every 2-4 cycles on S&M40+ for example), which would mean going back in at a lower weight. He also recommends conservative load increments and not being too zealous. KSC is pretty high volume as is his Barbell Club. GGW is high volume too. The problem is how the progressive load is applied such that it puts you over the edge. I don't get the feeling from Andy that he is anti-volume at all. I think his use of the terms "volume sensitive" is relative to a lot of other things. In my early 30's I lifted like Arnold, and I have always associated that with high volume. It nearly destroyed my shoulders for life back then before I wisely gave it up.

    What I DO like about the RPE stuff I'm reading is it provides a check-and-balance system for making sure you aren't taking your lifts to the limit. In the past, I'd just push as hard as I could to get the weight/rep scheme done, thinking that is what would take me to the next level. I would bet that working out in person with Andy he'd be able to know I was overdoing it and would have me back off where appropriate. I give him the benefit of the doubt there. The value in RPE at the moment for me, as someone who has never used it, would be that I can learn to gauge me own exertion/effort and modify the weight to keep me in the right zone. I'm hoping that would be more effective, and that I'll still feel like going on a bike ride with my kids at random points in the week without dread of having to put more work on my legs.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euby View Post
    I keep starting a new H/L or HLM program at a 10-20% reduction in weight, feeling great for a few weeks until the weight gets back to where it was at the end of SSLP, and then all the sudden i'm no good for anything except lying around trying to eat/sleep so I don't feel wasted or having to reset again.

    It's miserable. There has to be a better way but I haven't found it yet. I'm wondering if "The Bridge" will help. I'd have to learn RPE and how to apply it though. Not afraid of that at all, of course, but I feel like a chronic program hopper at this point.
    Yes, The Bridge will help. The problem you seem to be running into with HLM is that you're still trying to linearly progress, so you inevitably hit your wall. So if you're adding 5 pounds each medium day and cycle heavy day with fives, triples, doubles and singles, eventually your medium day is going to be too intense to give you the progress you need, and your intensity day will suffer from a lack of recovery from medium day.

    Some people like to keep medium day weights/sets/reps the same for 2-3 weeks as heavy day rotates. I think you're better off adding more volume to medium day over time, even if it means a reduction in weight so you can do more sets and reps.

    As an example, if your medium day gets to 330 for 3x5 and you're starting to grind, drop your next medium day to 300 for 5x5 or 6x6. Just an example of how to get more volume in with an intensity that is useful, but still recoverable and manageable.
    Last edited by marcf; 08-14-2017 at 01:14 PM.

  3. #73
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    Been training a little over a year and half and turned 42 in May. Been having issues with si/ low back been as well muscle strains and or fatigue in that area, especially since February of this year. Not really a program follower per se, been mostly running 3 or 4 day RTS style full body sessions for most of the last year. Switched to HLM thinking that might help and while better still by the 3rd squat session of the week back was toast. Found some success the last few weeks with an upper/ lower split. Squat/ DL assistance on Sunday, upper day on Mon, off Tues, Squat assistance(front sq now)/Heavy pull on Wed, then upper Thurs followed by 2 days off. I also only pull from the floor every other week, doing heavy block pulls between my DL sessions. Started this while running HLM about 2 mos ago. I train with alot of volume(relatively speaking) and this seems have made a big difference.

    For what it is worth I am a big fan of RPEs- took about 6mos to really get them dialed in. Tried to use a percentage/ cycling system of progression when I first started the HLM and it did not seem to really work for me.
    Last edited by 65DSL; 08-14-2017 at 03:09 PM.

  4. #74
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    I'm sure this will be covered by Austin when he writes more about it but there are some fundamental questions that are key. Is the older lifter willing/able to put in the work to build work capacity over time? Are they willing to put in 2 hour sessions 4x a week, eat 250g of protein a day, and sleep over 8 hours a night pretty much every single day/week? Motivation, discipline, and goals will be a huge factor here. Someone like Byran has those in spades. Manveer, although not an older lifter, does too.

    At 52, with Jordan doing my programming, I was doing an incredible amount of tonnage, spending over 2 hours a workout without screwing around, and had to be fanatical about recovery. It can be done, but it doesn't happen at the 8 month mark. That was after about 3 years of almost uninterrupted slavishness to the program and many more years or regular lifting. Most older lifters aren't oriented that way and it doesn't have to be to this extreme, but I still would maintain much of this argument is decided based on willingness to build the base and increase work capacity over time.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Palmer View Post
    Is the older lifter willing/able to put in the work to build work capacity over time? Are they willing to put in 2 hour sessions 4x a week, eat 250g of protein a day, and sleep over 8 hours a night pretty much every single day/week? Motivation, discipline, and goals will be a huge factor here. .
    Hell no. If you do The Pier, you only have to workout for about 30 minutes at a time and you can drink 6+ glasses of bourbon every night. It's awesome.

    In all seriousness, I have no idea how I could get a good 8 hours of solid sleep. I can't recall the last time that happened. I might have been 17. Not sure.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamsmuts View Post
    Hell no. If you do The Pier, you only have to workout for about 30 minutes at a time and you can drink 6+ glasses of bourbon every night. It's awesome.

    In all seriousness, I have no idea how I could get a good 8 hours of solid sleep. I can't recall the last time that happened. I might have been 17. Not sure.
    Me neither. During good weeks I average just over 7, and I'll generally get up at least twice during the night. Bad weeks are more like 6 and a half.

  7. #77
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    Yeah. I slept like a rock for about five hours last night. Suddenly woke up at about four thirty and was wide awake. But I'm 59 so that might have something to do with it.

  8. #78
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    My bigger point is that volume is certainly possible for an older lifter if they are willing to build work capacity over time. Volume is certainly necessary as the gains become harder to come by if you goal is to continue to move the weigh up. Yes, at a certain age, you have to be smart, cautious, and deliberate around how you build volume and programming has to reflect it.

  9. #79
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    So I recently downloaded Feigenbaum's and Baraki's program from his Instagram feed called "The Bridge". I feel like I've kinda messed up my intermediate transition, like so many others, and having read a lot of Jordan's material, it looked like the program would really be in my wheel house.

    On the other hand, I'm also getting to be older (41), so I read "The Barbell Prescription" with a lot of interest as well. So while reading "The Bridge", this paragraph in particular stuck out:

    An interesting concept has come up in some coaching circles suggesting that there are trainees who are uniquely “volume sensitive” who do not handle adding stress in the way of volume very well and incur more stress than we’d otherwise expect from a given amount volume. Classically, this type of trainee is an older person and the typical suggestion is to train less frequently, use less volume, and to use higher intensity work sets in order to incrementally increase stress. We find these claims lacking both scientific and anecdotal evidence and, in our estimation, representing a misunderstanding of exercise programming. Consequently, we will attempt to show that increasing volume exposure correctly is both necessary and beneficial for long term progress.
    This seems to directly contradict the main point of "The Barbell Prescription". All of the authors for both programs seem to be well respected on these boards. What are other older intermediate lifter's experiences with volume exposure? For me, I've tried to model my programming more towards the idea of volume sensitivity, but feel like I haven't made the progress that I should have. Maybe I'm just not an older lifter yet?
    It depends on what you mean by "older" and "evidence." I notice that most of the people commenting here are in their 40s, which for an already-training lifter is not really that old. Late 50s and 60s heads in that direction, and the "evidence" I have accumulated indicates that the ability to recover from higher-volume training -- multiple sets across and multiple exposures per week, as is commonly programmed for novice/intermediate/advanced lifters in PPST3 -- degrades rapidly after a certain point, reached by most men in their middle and late 50s. For these guys in particular, the concept of the "lowest effective dose" becomes very important, because time, sleeping ability, soreness tolerance, and a desire to compete (either formally or informally) become more and more scarce. I have trained a lot of guys in this demographic, and am in it myself, and I'd like to see your evidence to the contrary. It could be that we are talking past each other, due to the differences in motivation and expectation between 42-year-old guys who are young enough to remember high-school football and older guys who are about to file for Medicare.

  10. #80
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    I dont see any contradiction.

    As I wrote above https://startingstrength.com/resourc...ml#post1586081 , the older you get, the worse your recovery. That means the less volume/freq., even intensity you can train with.

    But thats not a new and fundamental, but gradual phenomenon for someone above 50 vs a 20yr old: The often besung "genetic limit" is, in practice, simply a recovery limit. For everyone, regardless the age.

    So the 60yr old as well as the 20yr old needs MORE volume if he has increased it and still plateaus. If either of them cant recover from more volume (in their current life circumstances) - then thats the point they max out. Simple as that. And thats one of the reason older people max out sooner than younger.

    But its not - any maybe this is the point where Jordan and Mark disagree - that IF an older trainee stalls with already low volume he would need even less volume. No, thats not the case, its the same with a younger lifter: If you dont have ENOUGH volume, you need more to advance. Theres no reversal of basic physiological concepts once you surpass a certain age.

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