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Thread: Why does muscle gain require extra calories?

  1. #11
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    What Ian said is true. I've been labeled a walrus before. I'm surprised I can even get out of bed in the morning - I'm SOO FAT!

  2. #12
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    Thanks again for the replies, guys.

    I'm 5'5 and 155 lbs with >20% bodyfat. I am starting SS (on my own with a power rack) which is why I started this thread.

    I've read Rip's clarification article in which he advices fat guys to "still eat a lot, but you don’t drink the milk and you cut your carb intake if you don’t see bodyfat levels drop during these first couple of weeks."

    I don't give a rat's about appearance at all but I don't want to become a walrus (see ello :P) and I don't want to end up being a sluggish meathead chugging around a ton of fat.

    My question, basically, is: being that I have a lot of fat lying around, am I then correct in saying that I can trust my body to burn existing fat stores to fuel its caloric needs for muscle gain without having to stuff my face (as Subsistence said earlier on in this thread)? At least until some of the fat is burned off by which time fat will become harder to burn (tfarny earlier on) and I will naturally have to up my calorie intake? Or will I need to start eating a ton right away to fuel muscle gain?

  3. #13
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    You probobaly have to start eating more meat that you've ever eaten. If you lose weight, eat more because that is really bad. If you gain a little weight, like 1lb/wk you're probably fine, but as a >20% newb you probably don't need to be gaining 2lb/wk.

    In the big picture, if you're stalling out, you're not eating enough.

    What are your current squat, bench and deadlift work weights? Are they hard?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacificmonk View Post
    Thanks again for the replies, guys.

    I'm 5'5 and 155 lbs with >20% bodyfat. I am starting SS (on my own with a power rack) which is why I started this thread.

    I've read Rip's clarification article in which he advices fat guys to "still eat a lot, but you don’t drink the milk and you cut your carb intake if you don’t see bodyfat levels drop during these first couple of weeks."

    I don't give a rat's about appearance at all but I don't want to become a walrus (see ello :P) and I don't want to end up being a sluggish meathead chugging around a ton of fat.

    My question, basically, is: being that I have a lot of fat lying around, am I then correct in saying that I can trust my body to burn existing fat stores to fuel its caloric needs for muscle gain without having to stuff my face (as Subsistence said earlier on in this thread)? At least until some of the fat is burned off by which time fat will become harder to burn (tfarny earlier on) and I will naturally have to up my calorie intake? Or will I need to start eating a ton right away to fuel muscle gain?
    Yes, but don't forget the protein.

  5. #15
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    Default None of it is so straight-forward

    I think there are still some pretty mysterious things about why something works and why something else doesn't. The unfortunate fact - for someone who wants a clear program to follow - is that the body is not a calorimeter (a canister that physical scientists use to measure heat produced by reactions contained in it). Buried amongst all the physiological processes accumulated through eons of natural selection are plenty of ways in which it can do counter-intuitive shit. Maybe a certain pattern of physical exertion makes it "worry" about a coming fast and store up the lard hand over fist, whereas another pattern makes it give priority to muscles, while another one makes it break down muscles. These responses may or may not be affected by the balance of nutrients in the diet, may or may not depend on your age, gender and state of mind, etc.

    Don't make the mistake of trying to sort all this out before you give any of it a try. Mark has done a shit-ton of empirical work to arrive at the recommendations he makes. That makes them as good a starting place as any (far better than most, actually), regardless of your particular situation. I'd say start out with the best case scenario -- GOMAD, lots of sleep and doing the program -- pay attention and make adjustments after giving it a good try (minimum 2 weeks?). If at some future point, you're clearly not able to make the scheduled workouts, you're not recovering adequately, you're piling on body fat but disappointing amounts of muscle, or any of a gazillion other ways in which the particulars of your situation and physiology are making the standard Rippetoe approach a bad match for you, *then* explore what to tweak. It really is too complex a puzzle to sort out entirely before the fact. Be glad you've got a resource as killer good as Starting Strength and get going - even if you are a frail, one armed, circus-freak centenarian who has only ever eaten grass and insects, starting with the full program and then adjusting is probably your best bet.

    **OK, re-read OP and I'm assuming, in what I wrote, here, that what he/she'S puzzling over has to do with his/her application of the program - whereas, on second look, it'S entirely possible that it'S simply a theoretical point of interest. In that case, I'd say, again, the systems in question are a lot more complex than most just-so dietary guidelines (or even college biochemistry & physiology text books, for that matter) make out. It'd certainly be nice if we could easily adjust things to direct which tissues are built and which are catabolized, but that turns out not to be the case. Our understanding of it all is still more based on what works than on a precise mechanistic description of all the relevant processes. Now this wraps into my reason for praising Mark's tenacious empirical work and ability to resist the urge to translate his observations into sweeping conclusions regarding the underlying theoretical models.
    Last edited by tallison; 01-06-2011 at 10:29 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MazdaMatt View Post
    You probobaly have to start eating more meat that you've ever eaten. If you lose weight, eat more because that is really bad. If you gain a little weight, like 1lb/wk you're probably fine, but as a >20% newb you probably don't need to be gaining 2lb/wk.

    In the big picture, if you're stalling out, you're not eating enough.

    What are your current squat, bench and deadlift work weights? Are they hard?
    It's embarrassing but I haven't actually started yet so I can't say. But I will in a couple of days (getting a power rack made) and I'll be sure to post my stats.

    And thanks, tfarny! I'll definitely eat lots of protein. But if protein is the key factor, can I substitute skim milk for whole milk? It's got all the protein just like the whole milk, just minus the fat.

  7. #17
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    You haven't even started and you're overthinking already? Not a good start. This is weight training, not rocket science.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tallison View Post
    I think there are still some pretty mysterious things about why something works and why something else doesn't. The unfortunate fact - for someone who wants a clear program to follow - is that the body is not a calorimeter (a canister that physical scientists use to measure heat produced by reactions contained in it). Buried amongst all the physiological processes accumulated through eons of natural selection are plenty of ways in which it can do counter-intuitive shit. Maybe a certain pattern of physical exertion makes it "worry" about a coming fast and store up the lard hand over fist, whereas another pattern makes it give priority to muscles, while another one makes it break down muscles. These responses may or may not be affected by the balance of nutrients in the diet, may or may not depend on your age, gender and state of mind, etc.

    Don't make the mistake of trying to sort all this out before you give any of it a try. Mark has done a shit-ton of empirical work to arrive at the recommendations he makes. That makes them as good a starting place as any (far better than most, actually), regardless of your particular situation. I'd say start out with the best case scenario -- GOMAD, lots of sleep and doing the program -- pay attention and make adjustments after giving it a good try (minimum 2 weeks?). If at some future point, you're clearly not able to make the scheduled workouts, you're not recovering adequately, you're piling on body fat but disappointing amounts of muscle, or any of a gazillion other ways in which the particulars of your situation and physiology are making the standard Rippetoe approach a bad match for you, *then* explore what to tweak. It really is too complex a puzzle to sort out entirely before the fact. Be glad you've got a resource as killer good as Starting Strength and get going - even if you are a frail, one armed, circus-freak centenarian who has only ever eaten grass and insects, starting with the full program and then adjusting is probably your best bet.
    Great read, tallison! The milk is kind of the problem. I just wanted to know if I could GO Skim MAD instead of GOing Whole MAD. But do you recommend that with >20% bodyfat I should still go with whole milk?

    Quote Originally Posted by hbriem View Post
    You haven't even started and you're overthinking already? Not a good start. This is weight training, not rocket science.
    True, true. Perhaps I am thinking too much about it; my only snaggle is the dietary part of it. As I've said, I just want to make sure if with plenty of bodyfat I still need to go with a high-calorie diet in the beginning.

  9. #19
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    With 20% I don't you should go MAD at all.

    EDIT: While I don't think you should drink a whole gallon of skim, a liter of 1% with some whey is probably a good way to add 60 grams of quality protein to your diet without skyrocketing the calories.
    Last edited by Carlos Daniel; 01-06-2011 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #20
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    starting strength coach development program
    @pacificmonk: based on my own experience -- which is quite mixed -- I'm mid-40's and very close to 25% bf and have had a wicked hard time sticking to the program (life has intruded more often than not), but the few times I was able to hit it on all cylinders, I watched the progress in amazement. A little over a year of sporadic effort has led to my conviction that it can work, regardless of your starting point, and that trying to tinker before giving it a try is potentially very silly, indeed.

    I wish I could make a more convincing case based on my own experience. Let'S see what this year brings. Good luck!

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