Reply With QuoteThen turn it round, so the buckle is at the back.Originally Posted by Aaron Montgomery
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It seems like it is one specific thing causing the problem here and if that can easily be fixed then it probably should be - and it sounds like it can.
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Then turn it round, so the buckle is at the back.
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Power Cleans
The Power Clean is a "Power Movement" more so than a "Strength Movement".
Research by Dr John Garhammer (Biomechanist Department of Physical Education at California State University,"A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test", [https://www.nsca.com/uploadedFiles/N...t_studies.pdf] demonstrated that power out were as follows...
"During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women
Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women
Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men
Obviously, there is a huge difference in power outputs. The power output of clean pulls is 2.85 time greater than a deadlift. Second pulls are even higher with power outputs 4.38 times l arger than deadlifts. Garhammer's research showed that even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great. Starr was way ahead of the curve on his training in regards to Olympic pulls for deadlifts." [The "No Deadlift" Deadlift Program, Powerlifting USA Magazine - SEPT/01. Based on Bill Starr's Deadlift Training Protocol]
Conventional Deadlifters
The sticking point for Conventional Deadlifters is around the knee area.
The purpose of Power Cleans, Power Snatches and Hang Pulls is to increase power output. Hang Power Cleans, Hang Power Snatches, Hang High Pulls in the knee are develop more "Pulling Power" in the knee area for Conventional Deadlifts.
Power is "The Grease" that allows a Conventional Deadlifter to slide through the knee area sticking point via momentum; "A body in motion, tends to stay in motion."
Push Press and Clean and JerkI am writing an e-book on how to use the push press to build the bench. I also include the clean and jerk.
Yes, there is some carry over for the Bench Press from the Push Press and Jerk. Both of these movement will increase power output, more so than strength for the Bench Press.
There isn't much carry over from the Clean for the Bench Press.
Now, let's look at how a "Pulling Movement" (like a Clean) can increase the Bench Press
Antagonist-Agonist Strength and Power Training
"A 2005 study published in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research entitled “Acute effect on power output of alternating an agonist and antagonist muscle exercise during complex training” suggested that not only does complex save time but it potentially enhances power."
The research demonstrated that performing a "Pulling Movement" prior to the Bench Press increase power output.
“Acute effect on power output of alternating an agonist and antagonist muscle exercise during complex training”
http://elitetrack.com/article_files/...antagonist.pdf
Other research employed Olympic Pulls elicited a greater Bench Press training effect.
Charles Poliquin (Canadian Strength Coach) has fund performing a "Pulling Movement" movement first, followed by the Bench Press increased the strength (Repetition Max) for the Bench Pressers.
With that said, a more effective method of implementing a Clean (Olympic Pull) to increase power and or strength in the Bench Press would be to "Super Set" them.
Kenny Croxdale
Last edited by Kenny Crox; 03-23-2017 at 05:45 AM.
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Again I have to ask, if PC's are so good for increasing power output, why do powerlifters not do them? No disrespect to you, Kenny, but I'm my short time here I've learned how the arguments here go and I'm hoping to hear something other than "just because pretty much every powerlifter in the world doesn't do cleans, that doesn't mean they shouldn't."
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OK. Is anyone debating that olympic lifts require a greater power output than powerlifts? You really didn't need to reference that study.
Flat back conventional pullers are typically weakest just off the floor. Also, the point at which the bar stops is not the point where there wasn't enough force applied to the bar. It will be below that since the bar has some momentum that carries it a little bit further before the stall occurs.
What is your evidence that power cleans carry over better to deadlifts than all of the movements listed by KotJ? Frankly, your statement about power being "the grease" is bullshit. Isn't the ability to exert more force on the bar in that part of the range of motion (and just below it) "the grease" for powerlifts? It doesn't matter how fast you pull your deadlift as long as you lock it out.
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I would say/speculate a lot of powerlifters do speed pulls, and/or other dynamic work with bands.
Stuff that is like a fast deadlift, but not necessarily a power clean.
. . .better to do something where the movement pattern in exactly similar to the deadlift. Specificity ya know.
(most people's clean pull =/= deadlift pull and vice versa for a powerlifter)
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Why Speed Work Doesn't Work - Juggernaut
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I didn't say it worked or not . . . just some powerlifters do in fact do a type of power/speed work (just not PCs). . . . Dag's question.
Evidently, enough PL'er do "it" to where Juggernaut felt compelled to write an article convincing others not do "it".
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Reference
While I didn't need to post it, it does provide great provide some reference number as to how much the enormous amount of power Olympic Movement produce in contract to the Powerlifts.
It's an interesting read for those who want more information.
Flat Back Conventional DeadlifterFlat back conventional pullers are typically weakest just off the floor.
The majority of these lifter are still typically strong off the floor. The sticking point still in the knee area.
However, there are exceptions; a minority will be weaker off the floor.
Great PointAlso, the point at which the bar stops is not the point where there wasn't enough force applied to the bar. It will be below that since the bar has some momentum that carries it a little bit further before the stall occurs.
As you, I have addressed this issue in previous post.
My Analogy
When you run out of gas in your car, the car continues to roll down the road.
Thus, where the car stops isn't where you ran out of gas.
As you noted, "Sticking Point Training" need to be a few inches below where the bar stopped in a movement.
Olympic Movement Vs Strength MovementWhat is your evidence that power cleans carry over better to deadlifts than all of the movements listed by KotJ?
Olympic Movement are better at developing power output than Strength Exercises. The reverse is true, Strength Exercise are better than Olympic Movements at developing Strength.
They are like tool in your tool box. You want to use the right tool for the right job.
Power AnalogyFrankly, your statement about power being "the grease" is bullshit. Isn't the ability to exert more force on the bar in that part of the range of motion (and just below it) "the grease" for powerlifts? It doesn't matter how fast you pull your deadlift as long as you lock it out.
Think of your sticking point as a mud hole. Which would you rather do...
1) Hit the mud hold driving as fast as you can to get through it; Powering through it.
2) Drive into the mud hold, stop and then try and "Muscle" you way through it.
What Power Is
Power = Strength X Speed
Increasing Strength will increase Power and increasing Speed also will increase Power.
Increasing both Strength and Speed magnifies Power to a greater degree rather than only increasing one.
Strength and Speed Training Analogy
Let use number for Strength and Speed. Let say each has a number of 2.
Thus, Power = 2 (Strength) X 2 (Speed) = 4
Let say we only double Strength to a 4. That means Power = 4 (Strength) X 2 (Speed) = 8, which is good.
However, if let's say we increase Strength to 3 and Speed to 3. That means Power = 3 (Strength) X 3 (Speed) = 9. even better.
Yes and NoIt doesn't matter how fast you pull your deadlift as long as you lock it out.
Powerlifting is the only sport that is a test of Limit Strength. In all heavy movement, there isn't going to be much bar speed.
All the matter is getting the bar up, no matter how ugly the lift is.
However, "Power Training" provide a synergistic effect allowing you to maintain momentum, keep the bar moving.
As we all know, once the bar stop moving, generating enough force to get it moving again is difficult.
That one of the reason Bench Press more with a "Touch and Go" Vs "Pause/Dead Stop" Benches.
Kenny Croxdale
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OK, but in powerlifting we are not optimizing power. Also, power output/speed is less trainable than limit force production. You're not going to increase your SVJ by 50%, so going from a 2 to a 3 in speed isn't possible (not that it matters for powerlifting). You can increase your squat from 135 to 600.
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