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Limits of Linear Progression
Rip,
There has been a lot of goings on around here that have changed my perception about the limits of linear progression. I recently contemplated switching over to the Texas Method, but hearing Mr Lascek say that he stopped his linear progression at 465x5x3 (whoa!) has made me feel like quite the pussy. I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on this, as well as some of the experiences of other lifters around here. Specifically what their body weight was, the numbers they were moving, and a little bit of their training history when they decided to give up on linear progression.
I know this has been covered before and that it varies widely on a case by case basis, but I'm motivated by curiosity and the desire to build a bigger frame of reference. I did my requisite search and turned up a very specific response by you, which was very enlightening:
"Intermediate is reached precisely when the 78th workout is completed, or when your deadlift reaches 1.68775 x bodyweight, whichever is first. My fave lift is the DB concentration curl, my fave color is French blue, and I really dig old Bobby Sherman records.
Fuck."
For perspective: I'm 23 years old, I've been running/crossfitting/doing other dumb stuff for longer then I care to admit. I started SS early September. I got my squat 5rm up to 305 after about two months, and I had gained about 30lbs in that time (of which I hope that more then 4lbs was LBM), from 185 to 215. I had a real hard time getting under 315 for a few workouts, so I backed off and did a week of low intensity stuff to ensure I wasn't over training. I considered a switch over to the texas method, but Justin Lascek just inspired me to quit thinking like a bitch, eat more food, and keep on truckin.
Thanks,
Dan
TMPHBITEU
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I only ever got up to 305-310lbs for 3x5 on the novice progression. (BW went from 150s to somewhere in the 190s @ 5'6"). This was with no prior sports/weight training, so I wasn't coming back from a lay off.
Success on the Texas Method has been pretty wild, though. I've been running TM in some form or another for over a year now, and my biggest 5x5 has been around 355lbs (BW @ 203lbs). My 1RM is closing in on 460lbs. Switching to intermediate programming gave me faster gains than late stage novice programming did.
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Linear progress on a novice program is nice because it's fast and easy to program. Your two questions when linear progression falters: 1) am I eating and sleeping enough and 2) should I start increasing at smaller increments. In other words, you might have hit 310 and then 315 instead of failing at 315 twice.
If you microload and eat more and you still can progress, just go ahead and hop to an intermediate program. The reasoning is straightforward... if you're constantly adding in resets and light days to a novice program, you're essentially doing an intermediate program but a poor facsimile of one since rest and working recovery are built in to the good intermediate programs.
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Wait patrick i'm a bit confused with your logic here "if you microload and eat more and you can still progress"? doesn't that mean you are still progressing and making linear progress and therefore still stick to a novice program even if it is an advanced one working on linear periodisation instead of weekly intermediate periodisation? or am i missing something here
Member
I have no expertise in this, but my understanding is that different people will have different linear progression limits. Not everyone can squat 465 before they hit their linear progression limits, it will depend on the individual. It does seem from what I've read and seen that many people will switch over too soon, as they get scared of the weight, confused about deloading or bored of the program.
Member
Well mine is probably a unique linear progression story!
I originally could squat 172.5kg for 5, bench 142.5kg for 5, and deadlift 220kg for 5 at 90kg (Feb '06),
I then got very ill and was stripped down to 70kg!
after the illness i started off back in the gym (april '06) and struggled with 60kg for 5 on squat, 67.5kg for 5 on bench and 85kg for 5 on deadlift, my movement patterns were screwed after being in a bed for 6 weeks but also had lost of ton of lean mass. So i started on a simple linear progression program originally increasing weight on the lifts every workout, then shifting to increasing every week i went all the way up to squat 202.5kg for 5, bench 150kg for 5 and deadlift 245kg for 5 at 97kg (Nov 06), way beyond my previous numbers before the illness.
So at the end of the day the illness was a blessing as i found out the true power of applying the simple principles of linear progression on the core lifts that Rip teaches.
Member
I ate like a horse and gained 30 pounds on starting strength.
I also milked it for about 18 months.
At a youthful 40 and change I got 1xbw bench, 1.5bx squat, 1.75xbw deadlift. I'm fairly sure there was still some room in my bench so I'd gues at 1.25xbw BUT at that point I couldn't keep the SS program going more than about 6 weeks without a reset and I wasn't progressing anymore.
Age and genetics are going to be a real factor. Milk it as long as you can as everything else is going to be slower but you will know when you are done.
Member
I hit 330 on the squat before I had to reset for the 2nd time. At this point I had already reset all my other lifts except deadlift twice, and hit my first stall on the deadlift (at 350, I think). In the middle of the reset I decided to finally change programs to focus on powerlifting. Since then my 1RM on the squat is at 425 and 440 for deadlift. I still could have progressed linear, but I think switching programs has made progress much faster.
Member
Sorry I'm so late in responding. The microloading refers decreasing the workout-to-workout incremental addition of weight to a lift. That is, if you're smart and you start out really low you can increase your squat by 10 lbs every workout for several weeks. Then one day you can't. It might be smarter to keep doing SS but instead of adding 10 lbs every time you add 5. And you can keep going down, too... 2 lbs per workout on SS is still 6 lbs/week and that's pretty quick. So the idea is that if you stall you should back a little bit off and then microload your way back up. Once you hit that wall a couple of times then it's time to move on.Originally Posted by confuzzl3don3
But from helping out at the much maligned BB.com, it's almost always the case that a guy says "I stalled and reset and stalled again... but I've been getting shitfaced every night and I didn't much for the last week. My question is, should I do Dogg Crap or Westside?" So the answer is usually to eat and sleep more, then reset and microload, and then move on if that fails a couple of times.
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