PowerCleans and Deadlift Programming Help

[GesD]

Hey Everyone,

I just wanted some advice on how I should structure my SS program from now on. I just added Powercleans into my workout this past Friday and have been doing Chin and Pull Ups. Check out my log if your interested. What I will be doing from now on(tentatively) is the Wichita Falls Novice Program:

Monday 12/14/09
Squat 255x3x5
Bench Press 182.5x3x5
Chin-Ups , , , 3XF

Wednesday 12/16/09
Squat 265x3x5
Overhead Press 132.5x3x5
Deadlift 365x1x5

Friday 12/18/09
Squat 275x3x5
Bench Press 185x3x5
Pull-Ups , , , 3XF

However, while I like the idea that I get to do Chins/Pulls, Deadlifts, and Powercleans do you think that doing Deadlifts and Powercleans alternating once a week is not enough? I went from doing Deadlifts alternating and now I just added Powercleans back into the program. Now I will only be doing Powercleans and Deadlifts each twice a month. Do you think this isn't efficient because I will not be training the Powerclean enough to get a decent weight on the bar and too long of a break between Deadlifts?

Thank you,
Dave

[nisora33]

Since you are new to doing the power clean, only doing them once every other week isn't advisable from a technique point-of-view. Largely, the limiting factor in the power clean is technique, and you'll need lots of practice in the beginning in order to "perfect" your technique.

As for the deadlift, if you're able to deadlift once a week and add 5 lbs. to the bar every time that you do them, then you should continue to deadlift once a week. Why slow your progress?

Now, you might be worried that deadlifting, plus power cleaning, plus chinning and doing pull-ups might lead to overtraining of the pulling muscles, or just overtraining more generally, and you might be right; but the only way to know for sure will be to try doing all of them somehow and see.

-Stacey

[knox]

Power cleaning twice a month isn't really enough to get much out of the movement since you're just starting to do it. Why don't you try it this way:

1)
Squat
Bench/Press (alternate)
Power Clean

2)
Squat
Bench/Press (alternate)
Deadlift

3)
Squat
Bench/Press (alternate)
Power Clean

This way you're power cleaning twice a week and deadlifting once a week, which will bring your clean numbers up quickly and allow your deadlift to keep progressing at a reasonable rate. When you get to the point where your cleans and deadlifts stop improving, that is the time to switch to the Witchita Falls Novice variation you posted.

[Sami]

Are you sure you've got the programming right? I haven't got that specific template at hand, but I don't think any of them have you doing DL or PCs every other WEEK. The standard novice program has DL every other session which makes it once OR twice a week, so 6 times a month. And the same for PCs except on the other day.

Later, the DLs and PCs are added to the same day and alternated so that you Deadlift and Power Clean EVERY week EACH. So each month you do 4 deadlifts and 4 power cleans.

And can't imagine ANY novice template would have you pulling less frequently than that.

[knox]

Edit: I made a post in response to Sami's, but the information it contained was not 100% correct. Let me try again.

The OP posted the Onus Wunsler program (with the exception of back extensions), but I believe he has misinterpreted it. It should look as follows:

Week 1
1)
Squat
Bench/Press
Deadlift/Power Clean

2)
Squat
Bench/Press
Chins

3)
Squat
Bench/Press
Deadlift/Power Clean

Week 2
1)
Squat
Bench/Press
Chins

2)
Squat
Bench/Press
Deadlift/Power Clean

3)
Squat
Bench/Press
Chins

So you end up doing Deadlifts three times every four weeks and Power Cleans three times every four weeks. This is still not enough Cleaning for the OP because he has just started learning the movement, and should be doing it as often as possible. As Nisora said, the main limitation in the power clean is technique - and since the OP has already built up decent deadlifting strength, I think it makes sense for him to do cleans twice a week and deads once per week. However, I am open to criticism of this approach.

[stronger]

And also, because your powerclean is going to be relatively weak and light when you start, doing powercleans more than once per weak won't affect your recovery as much as they would when you get up to higher percentages of your 1RM.

you're going to experience marvelously sore traps for a while though...

[Craig B.]

Check this post on the DL/PC frequency...

http://www.startingstrength.com/reso...deadlift+month

C.

[GesD]

Thanks for the help everyone,

Do you think it would be adviseable then to drop the Chins and Pulls for a while and strictly do this EVERY week <Week I (ABA) Week II (ABA) > with out alternating until the linear progress wears off and then add the the Chins and Pulls back in? Do you think the Power Clean would get messed up because I would be doing it Friday and then the following Monday? Or will that not matter when the weight is not that heavy?

Squat
Bench Press
Power Clean

Squat
Overhead Press
Deadlift

Squat
Bench Press
Powerclean

Thanks again,
Dave

[hatmanii]

I'd go with the format laid out in the Rippetoe Q&A post that was linked.

Check this post on the DL/PC frequency...

http://www.startingstrength.com/reso...deadlift+month

C.

If you really want to drop pullups/chinups for some reason, just do the standard novice program (which is kind of what you have suggested)

A - Squat/Bench/Powerclean
B - Squat/Press/Deadlift

And alternate A/B every other day three days a week

If you think that's too much deadlifting atm, you could also alternate deadlifts/pullups-chinups. You've got a lot of options. Experiment and see what you like best.

[tescott]

I do this:

Squat
Press/Bench
PC

Squat
Bench/Press
Pull Up

Squat
Press/Bench
Deadlift

You could do this, but also add in a few lighter sets of PCs after the DLs. Rip recommends this in PP for extra technique work.

Also, the original routine posted was legitimate - it is the novice program given in PP 1st ed.