Whats wrong with crossfit?

[Eric K]

i think braun is almost useless on the battlefield, and said a base strength is needed. i know here a 460 DL, 345 BS, and 145 press is a joke but for a guy on the battlefield it is more than adequate especially if said soldier can hump 25 miles a day, go without food without dying for possibly days at a time, move quickly to engage the enemy, and expertly put a bullet where it needs to go.

at 155 i've carried the pack and rifle of guys who were probably 245 17% BF who just couldn't hack it, you do some very intense exercises that require A LOT of endurance in the SEALs and force recon (i wasn't in force recon but deployed with them twice)

I noticed the distinction about brawn after I posted. Apologies. But, your personal example is a bit moot if the guy was body building instead of some kind of appropriate goal oriented, and structured training. And I know the exercises that SEALs and Force guys do is endurance-heavy, but I think that they emphasize endurance too much to the detriment of their personnel.

Recon's primary mission is R&S which requires a long distance to move, under load, from insert to OP, and both SEALs and Recon need the capacity for self-propelled (i.e. swimming) amphibious insert, although that method of insert is increasingly less likely due to the severe limitations it imparts (in terms of timeliness/location of insert and the lack of effective equipment they can bring, compromise, etc.). Standard infantry guys (according to the T&R manual) should be able to move 25 miles with a combat load in under 8 hours in order to "turn the enemy's flank," but I also question the validity of this capacity as well. And much less of this applies to the guys in armored units who need the ability to change heavy mechanical parts under adverse conditions in a timely manner (which raises the idea of different physical training standards for different MOS's, but that's another discussion).

You're right about putting rounds accurately on target, and quick movement from cover to cover, but if you're moving in excess of 800 m from cover to cover (unless you're in defilade) then you're just going to get shot. Additionally, the idea of obstacles on a predominantly urban (or even rural with houses, fences, and canals like Afghanistan) environment requires sufficient upper body strength to negotiate obstacles while also moving quickly. Appropriate bounding movements are typically 10's of meters. These are all distances and abilities that can be optimally accomplished by guys who's training is more tailored towards rugby or football rather than guys training for soccer. Obviously, football and rugby training would not necessarily be best, only that the strength emphasis would be beneficial and that the best model would be closer to football/rugby than it would to soccer.

I think the daily 25 mile hike example is a little misleading. This is actually patrolling, which is the slowest tactical movement on the spectrum (patrolling, assault, movement to contact) and it should be slow to maintain situational awareness and cover more ground. That being sad, the load is lighter than the traditional hike with the main ILBE. Water, 1-2 MREs, radioes, batteries, PPE, possibly a sleep system, weapons and ammo are all heavy, of course, but the purpose is generally to engage the locals, look for IEDs or set in an ambush, all of which should be performed slowly. Engagements with the enemy are more similiar to short sprints than it is to a timed 25 mile hike. I think more emphasis on the higher intensity training with the occassional long movement under load would offer a better conditioned soldier/sailor/Marine, than the traditional, lots of running and hiking and discouraging of weight training.

The movement to contact, which is the fastest tactical movement, was how we invaded Iraq. This was a very fast and long-distance movement. But, not surprisingly, it was not executed on foot. We averaged 45 kph on most days because we used vehicles, mounted troops and Light Armored Reconnaisance vehicles to maintain contact with the enemy and keep him on his heels. This would not be possible with a mostly foot-bound military, so I don't really see the necessity for maintaining the 25 mile/8 hour capacity...

I think we both agree that excessive muscle (as with hypertrophy-focused, bodybuilding) is detrimental (although we could discuss if excess muscle was even possible with a properly-structured PT program) and that someone in the military now who can deadlift 400, squat 345, and press 145 is probably doing all right; I'm merely saying that with properly structured programming the average guy could be stronger with better job performance. I just don't think that more endurance training is the right answer (although I would (and have) recommend someone train endurance to succeed at BUD/S, ARS, or BRC mostly because of how the schools are structured currently).

[Eric K]

You think this guy is useless in a battle?

Haha. I don't care what the advertisements say, I bet he'd fall apart in the water...

[ihatemoney123]

GAME OVER!

[Tamara Reynolds]

Hahah but when I first started lifting I could not answer these questions myself. However, my form was never "crossfit" form. I just knew there was a squat snatch and squat clean. Was my form great? Heck no. Did it improve the more I started to learn about olympic weightlifting? Heck no. It only started improving once I got in about 4 thousand repetitions. Even still, I have a loooonnnnggg way to go in terms of efficiency.

I think the problem with crossfit and their use of the olympic lifts is:

I'm confused where they learned the lifts......because the way they teach the lifts is very surprising. They muscle all cleans and muscle all snatches. They have no hip movement at all, obviously not all.

I am not talking about people's form necessarily. I post my lifting vids for critique. No one has perfect form. No one knows everything.

Your second point is what I am talking about. The CrossFit Level 1 cert does not teach the snatch and the clean and jerk. Yet, those lifts are programmed CONSTANTLY. Unless a CF coach has been to a separate weightlifting seminar or cert, I honestly don't know where 90% of affiliate owners learned how to coach the Olympic lifts. And, that's why I can show you what my snatch looked like as a CrossFitter and what it looked like when I first starting working with a Real Weightlifting Coach and what it looks like now after almost a year of weightlifting (cue snatch jokes). Big Fucking Difference.

And, with the quiz, my point was that these people are claiming that they "do weightlifting" at their gym. And, they have all been lifting for more than a year or even two years. And, if I walk in the door right now and tell them to snatch to a heavy single, they won't know how to do that without someone holding their hand. Fuck if they could even squat a 3x5 set without hand holding. I HATE BLATANT INEPTITUDE IN GROWN ASS ADULTS THAT IS ENCOURAGED BY AFFILIATE OWNERS WHO ARE JUST BREEDING CODEPENDENCY UNDER THE GUISE OF "COMMUNITY." For the bargain price of $190 a month.

Claws retracted for the moment.

[ihatemoney123]

I am not talking about people's form necessarily. I post my lifting vids for critique. No one has perfect form. No one knows everything.

Your second point is what I am talking about. The CrossFit Level 1 cert does not teach the snatch and the clean and jerk. Yet, those lifts are programmed CONSTANTLY. Unless a CF coach has been to a separate weightlifting seminar or cert, I honestly don't know where 90% of affiliate owners learned how to coach the Olympic lifts. And, that's why I can show you what my snatch looked like as a CrossFitter and what it looked like when I first starting working with a Real Weightlifting Coach and what it looks like now after almost a year of weightlifting (cue snatch jokes). Big Fucking Difference.

And, with the quiz, my point was that these people are claiming that they "do weightlifting" at their gym. And, they have all been lifting for more than a year or even two years. And, if I walk in the door right now and tell them to snatch to a heavy single, they won't know how to do that without someone holding their hand. Fuck if they could even squat a 3x5 set without hand holding. I HATE BLATANT INEPTITUDE IN GROWN ASS ADULTS THAT IS ENCOURAGED BY AFFILIATE OWNERS WHO ARE JUST BREEDING CODEPENDENCY UNDER THE GUISE OF "COMMUNITY." For the bargain price of $190 a month.

Claws retracted for the moment.

I didn't particularly get this vibe with Crossfit in NYC. They all knew their shit. Granted, I don't know all of the crossfit clubs in NYC (there are not many), I could still venture an educational guess. I noticed that crossfit clubs put too much emphasis on simply trying and not excelling. I also noticed that these clubs were not impecunious, but neither were they profiting. They need to charge 190 a month. Most of the gyms are opening up not simply for profit but mostly for the fact that they love it.

In terms of olympic lifting, I noticed there was either too much going on or none at all. Some had a very simplistic way of looking at technique while others had an amalgamated structure.

The olympic lifts are something you can learn on your own. Your body, over time, will learn to lift the weight in a more functional manner. Perfection, or however you can get close to perfection is when you need a coach.

Tbone, I looked at your log. Your technique doesn't really have any faults. I'm not really qualified to say anything but I do have a basic idea how to oly lift. If I had 0 clue whatsoever than I would not have hit a 130kg clean last night and a 90kg snatch 3 days ago in under 6 months of lifting (1 month of snatching). One thing I noticed is that you take a slightly different approach to lifting, one that you generally see with female lifters in China. My lifts aren't great, in fact they are weak, but for my strength levels, I am happy with them. For a max front squat of 140-146, 130kg is extremely efficient.

[John Bono]

You think this guy is useless in a battle?

In battle, pretty much.

In porn, however, he'd probably be a pretty good fit. It's the mustache, you know.

[Clint Merrill]

And, with the quiz, my point was that these people are claiming that they "do weightlifting" at their gym. And, they have all been lifting for more than a year or even two years. And, if I walk in the door right now and tell them to snatch to a heavy single, they won't know how to do that without someone holding their hand. Fuck if they could even squat a 3x5 set without hand holding. I HATE BLATANT INEPTITUDE IN GROWN ASS ADULTS THAT IS ENCOURAGED BY AFFILIATE OWNERS WHO ARE JUST BREEDING CODEPENDENCY UNDER THE GUISE OF "COMMUNITY." For the bargain price of $190 a month.

Claws retracted for the moment.

You go, girl!

[Tamara Reynolds]

I didn't particularly get this vibe with Crossfit in NYC. They all knew their shit. Granted, I don't know all of the crossfit clubs in NYC (there are not many), I could still venture an educational guess. I noticed that crossfit clubs put too much emphasis on simply trying and not excelling. I also noticed that these clubs were not impecunious, but neither were they profiting. They need to charge 190 a month. Most of the gyms are opening up not simply for profit but mostly for the fact that they love it.

In terms of olympic lifting, I noticed there was either too much going on or none at all. Some had a very simplistic way of looking at technique while others had an amalgamated structure.

The olympic lifts are something you can learn on your own. Your body, over time, will learn to lift the weight in a more functional manner. Perfection, or however you can get close to perfection is when you need a coach.

Tbone, I looked at your log. Your technique doesn't really have any faults. I'm not really qualified to say anything but I do have a basic idea how to oly lift. If I had 0 clue whatsoever than I would not have hit a 130kg clean last night and a 90kg snatch 3 days ago in under 6 months of lifting (1 month of snatching). One thing I noticed is that you take a slightly different approach to lifting, one that you generally see with female lifters in China. My lifts aren't great, in fact they are weak, but for my strength levels, I am happy with them. For a max front squat of 140-146, 130kg is extremely efficient.

I am not meaning my statements to apply to all affiliates because I know some really great affiliates, some of whom post on this board. I still train at a CF affiliate. My claws come out especially sharp when I have to deal with my former affiliate, and that is the nonsense that was thrown in my face today. Still, any affiliate that knows what it is doing has taken the time to actually go out and learn beyond the CF L1. It's the same with any endeavor.

My technique has a lot of faults, but I have come a long way. I am still not strong, but I am stronger than when I had a 160 lb squat as a CrossFitter. I am very comfortable with my clean, but I am limited by my front squat, and my jerk has just recently caught up to my clean anyway. My snatch has made a dramatic turn around just in the last week. I switched from CrossFit to weightlifting after rehabbing a probable SLAP tear, and when I started weightlifting, I couldn't jerk due to bulging discs in my neck. So, I haven't had the smoothest road. Plus, I am 35, and I only started lifting a barbell two years ago.

I have a good weightlifting coach who taught me to lift, and he spent a lot of time correcting the shit that I did incorrectly due to CrossFit. I learned to lift from him and from Glenn Pendlay. And, then I learned to lift from Rip, and now Jim Moser is programming for me. I have been fortunate to have a lot of people help me with both my own lifting and my coaching, and it is interesting and useful to see their differing perspectives, especially when they vehemently disagree. I hope that I turn out to be much better as a coach than I am as a lifter.

Do you mean a different approach to lifting in terms of my form or my programming?

[ihatemoney123]

I am not meaning my statements to apply to all affiliates because I know some really great affiliates, some of whom post on this board. I still train at a CF affiliate. My claws come out especially sharp when I have to deal with my former affiliate, and that is the nonsense that was thrown in my face today. Still, any affiliate that knows what it is doing has taken the time to actually go out and learn beyond the CF L1. It's the same with any endeavor.

My technique has a lot of faults, but I have come a long way. I am still not strong, but I am stronger than when I had a 160 lb squat as a CrossFitter. I am very comfortable with my clean, but I am limited by my front squat, and my jerk has just recently caught up to my clean anyway. My snatch has made a dramatic turn around just in the last week. I switched from CrossFit to weightlifting after rehabbing a probable SLAP tear, and when I started weightlifting, I couldn't jerk due to bulging discs in my neck. So, I haven't had the smoothest road. Plus, I am 35, and I only started lifting a barbell two years ago.

I have a good weightlifting coach who taught me to lift, and he spent a lot of time correcting the shit that I did incorrectly due to CrossFit. I learned to lift from him and from Glenn Pendlay. And, then I learned to lift from Rip, and now Jim Moser is programming for me. I have been fortunate to have a lot of people help me with both my own lifting and my coaching, and it is interesting and useful to see their differing perspectives, especially when they vehemently disagree. I hope that I turn out to be much better as a coach than I am as a lifter.

Do you mean a different approach to lifting in terms of my form or my programming?

Again, this is based on my observation but....I believe the way you lift now (specifically your start position) is different from before (when pendlay was coaching you?). Technique for females is not something I try to comment on, because I think lifting for females (in oly lifting) is not the same for men. So what may work for me may not particularly work for you. Programming is always the same. As much as people like to think there are special programs, there aren't. Programming varies based on your level, strength and weaknesses but the core of the exercises stay the same. The volume progressively increases as your experience increases.


In crossfit (at least what I have noticed) you don't see athletes snatch like you do. You keep the bar close and it brushes against your thighs. Lots of crossfitters simply jump and pull with their arms.....by the time they finish their jump and pull they sit and walla its a power snatch and they ride it down.

What are your PR's for snatch/ CJ? How many days a week do you lift? How many times a week do you squat?

[Tamara Reynolds]

Again, this is based on my observation but....I believe the way you lift now (specifically your start position) is different from before (when pendlay was coaching you?). Technique for females is not something I try to comment on, because I think lifting for females (in oly lifting) is not the same for men. So what may work for me may not particularly work for you. Programming is always the same. As much as people like to think there are special programs, there aren't. Programming varies based on your level, strength and weaknesses but the core of the exercises stay the same. The volume progressively increases as your experience increases.


In crossfit (at least what I have noticed) you don't see athletes snatch like you do. You keep the bar close and it brushes against your thighs. Lots of crossfitters simply jump and pull with their arms.....by the time they finish their jump and pull they sit and walla its a power snatch and they ride it down.

I just changed my start position when Rip came to visit last month. Previously, I was using a low hip start, which is what my coach teaches (he uses Glenn's progressions for the most part, although he is an SS coach and is therefore familiar with Rip's set up as well). I also recently changed from lifting 3 days a week (with a fourth day of additional strength work) to 6 days a week. This has worked very, very well for me so far.

My problem with my snatch as a WEIGHTLIFTER has never been arm pull. My coach fixed that and taught me how to keep the bar close from the beginning once I left CrossFit. But, I was forever on my toes and didn't get my hips through all the way. The changes I have made in the last week have started to fix a lot of this. I am still working on getting under the bar, and my snatch is just terribly slow for a weightlifter, period. Glenn and my coach teach beginning lifters to catch the bar where they pull it and ride it down. Jim teaches his lifters to catch full cleans and snatches in the bottom position from the beginning. So, these are all things I am sorting out as a lifter and as a coach. I don't know that there is ONE BEST WAY. I am inclined to think that it depends on the lifter, and I am very glad that I have taken the time to learn about different approaches because it will make me a better coach. My coach says that I am the exception to every rule. I am okay with that as long as I continue to make progress.

One of my favorite quotes from Rip from before I actually knew him was "Mediocre athletes that tried like hell to get good are the best coaches." I may never be the best lifter or the best coach, but I'd like to think that I tried like hell to be both. I will be in Wichita Falls next weekend lifting with Rip and Jim. I'm pretty sure I will come home a better lifter and a better coach.