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Thread: Sanity check -- glute activation

  1. #1
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    Default Sanity check -- glute activation

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    Rip,

    I'd like a quick reality check. I keep encountering the claim, in various places, that people ought to do "glute activation exercises." The proponents of these exercises tend to claim that due to office-type jobs, many people are cursed with "dormant glutes" that need to be "activated," and that the glutes and/or hamstrings may not be working properly in movements like the squat and the deadlift, thereby causing the low back to "do more of the work."

    My reaction is that this is complete nonsense; the hamstrings and glutes are hip extensors, and if the hip is being extended, as it must be to perform anything like a proper squat or deadlift, those muscles must be performing their function. The erector spinae are responsible for placing the spine in extension, and their job is to hold it there isometrically in those movements. Therefore there is no possible way that they can do the work of the glutes and hamstrings in extending the hip. Hamstring vs. glute contribution depends on a number of things, like bar placement, body segment proportion, etc. If a trainee can perform a correct squat and deadlift, they have all the "glute activation" that they need.

    Am I missing anything?

  2. #2
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    You cannot believe how often I hear this ridiculous shit, and we were just talking about this yesterday. I frustrate more easily than you, I assure you. Apparently, there is some government agency tasked with the job of convincing everybody that the entire American populace has sleeping glutes that won't "fire" and that a special exercise must be performed to wake them up.

    People: nerves make muscles contract. If you perform a movement that requires the contraction of a muscle, like a squat that incorporates the external rotators because you squatted in a way that produces external femoral rotation, and hip extension because the hips have to extend when you stand up, then the muscles that produced the external rotation and hip extension are working, or "firing" if you are a PT. This means that the nerves that make them contract are working too. You know this because the femurs externally rotated and the hips extended, and the muscles caused this to happen since they are what move the bones. And here is the really fascinating part that is apparently so much like integral calculus that nobody seems to understand it: if you learn to squat in a way that uses external femoral rotation, you're "firing" your glutes BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SQUAT THAT WAY IF YOU DON'T.

  3. #3
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    I am currently dealing with a sore psoas that keeps me from squatting and I was looking everywhere for a solution, a protocoll or help from people who had a similar condition. But on every second website dealing with this problem people keep telling me to stretch my glutes. Until now I was always wondering why I should do so because I think my posterior chain is fairly flexible from squatting (can touch the ground with my palms with straight legs at 6'2''), so thank you LudwigVan & Mark for clearing that up.

    But maybe you have some kind of advice because my pain is not getting better. My job is certainly a problem (sitting at a desk for 9 or 10 hours or more a day), so I am trying to stretch and walk around every hour or so. Foam rolling, dynamic and static stretching are also done couple of times a week. But even after 10 days of rest the pain came back after squatting just 5x175 lbs (5x280 is regular weight) - and what I don't understand: right after the workout my glutes are sore like hell. How is that possible? Could it be a form issue? Or is the psoas so extremly tight?

    For now I just skip squatting, doing more rehab work and I was planning to squat next week again to see how it goes. But if anybody has any experience or explanation and could tell me if I am missing something I would be very grateful!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by LudwigVan View Post

    Am I missing anything?
    It's to tone the mucsles....obviously.

    On a more serious note I used to do hip thrusts (unweighted) for this very reason glute 'activation' . I have a Lordosis and I've experimented with all sorts of things to try and stand properly. For me they worked a bit like supermans do for teaching people how to contract their lower back when they suck at it. It never actually fixes the problem, just makes you more aware of the muscles you're supposed to be using. As such you need to do them pretty much constantly.

    Even with all my streches and 'activation' exercises I still can't stand properly, when I do remember to tuck my pelvis under it just makes my middle/upper back round. I'm starting to think it's structural. (The pressing exercises have probably been the best help so far actually)

  5. #5
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    Thanks Rip, that's what I thought. Unsurprisingly, your opinion, which closely mirrors what I had already been saying, did little to sway my interlocutor, but at least I feel confident that my glutes are firing well enough to keep my head out of my ass.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel's Jack View Post
    I am currently dealing with a sore psoas that keeps me from squatting and I was looking everywhere for a solution, a protocoll or help from people who had a similar condition.
    How do you know it's a sore psoas?

  7. #7
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    Regarding the original question: I think a lot has to do with piss-poor coaching or just ignorance of the basic compound exercises. If you're not aware of what a squat is or how to properly coach it then you end up doing SBS to try and address the apparent problem. As Wendler says (and I paraphrase) "Is it a sleepy butt, or is it just that they're just overall weak?"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You cannot believe how often I hear this ridiculous shit, and we were just talking about this yesterday. I frustrate more easily than you, I assure you. Apparently, there is some government agency tasked with the job of convincing everybody that the entire American populace has sleeping glutes that won't "fire" and that a special exercise must be performed to wake them up.

    People: nerves make muscles contract. If you perform a movement that requires the contraction of a muscle, like a squat that incorporates the external rotators because you squatted in a way that produces external femoral rotation, and hip extension because the hips have to extend when you stand up, then the muscles that produced the external rotation and hip extension are working, or "firing" if you are a PT. This means that the nerves that make them contract are working too. You know this because the femurs externally rotated and the hips extended, and the muscles caused this to happen since they are what move the bones. And here is the really fascinating part that is apparently so much like integral calculus that nobody seems to understand it: if you learn to squat in a way that uses external femoral rotation, you're "firing" your glutes BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SQUAT THAT WAY IF YOU DON'T.
    To begin this post: I am not contradicting or disagreeing with anything from the above post.

    It is true absolutely that the muscles don't just "fall asleep" or whatever BS people are saying these days. Now that said, people sitting in desk chairs for 8+ hours a day typically do have sever ATROPHY of their glutes along with some proprioceptive loss of the muscle. Similar to the way some people don't know how to get an active hip on verbal commands, these people will often have difficulty preforming a correct squat because they are shifting into bad positions due to lack of glute recruitment.

    Once these people are taught how to squat correctly (typically with no to very low load due to being weak as piss) they of course have fine glute function, as you must to preform a correct squat. And you certainly DO NOT need to have them do "special glute activation" exercises first. It simply makes it more difficult to get them moving in good patterns to begin with. Maybe those "activation" exercises help? I wouldn't know I have never used them.

    My only real point was just to point out that I have seen many people with severe atrophy of the glutes, some of which who had very poor proprioception of what their glutes were doing. These people also typically had musculoskeletal issues from compensating for said atrophy. Of course, teaching them to squat and deadlift correctly, while more difficult than others, fixed the problem just fine.

    Perhaps a gross misunderstanding of this idea is what has lead to the silly notion of muscles falling asleep and needing to be awakened or what have you?

  9. #9
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    I have taught more than a few people how to squat from nearly every age bracket. I have yet to find one single trainee that when told to sit back and shove their knees out with their elbows could not perform a squat due to "poor activation", "glutes not firing" , "sleeping muscles" or whatever else they like to call it.

    It comes down th inability to teach the squat, both the strength coach and the fucking PT, and I think it started when someone let the PT get anywhere near a weightroom. I have actually had one of my trainees get told that his left glute was not firing. This guy can LBBS mid 300's with textbook form. How the hell is is left glute not firing? Can someone even attempt to explain such a thing and still be considered knowledgeable in the field?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
    It is true absolutely that the muscles don't just "fall asleep" or whatever BS people are saying these days. Now that said, people sitting in desk chairs for 8+ hours a day typically do have sever ATROPHY of their glutes along with some proprioceptive loss of the muscle. Similar to the way some people don't know how to get an active hip on verbal commands, these people will often have difficulty preforming a correct squat because they are shifting into bad positions due to lack of glute recruitment.
    Per RC's quote, there can be something to these activation exercises, but it isn't what physical therapists or doctors think. A personal anecdote follows. Skip to the bottom to avoid a wall o' text.

    While squatting 240lbs in LP I had an accident that resulted in an injury to both of my patellar tendons, and the injury developed into patellar tendinitis. Diagnosed by an ortho in December, and started physical therapy. Couldn't hurt, right? Well, my physical therapist noted that I had an "enormous" amount of negative hyperextension in both of my knees. Over -10 degrees, apparently. After other push/pull/poke/prod maneuvers she also decided that I had weak glutes and hamstrings compared to my big, strong quads. I did notice that I was able to push much more confidently UP with my leg extended (quads) than BACK (hams/glutes). I was dismayed, since I assumed that the squats would develop things evenly. Since I had developed an admirable "squatt butt," I assumed that all was going well.

    After doing various ham/glute activation exercises, I found that I didn't really know what it felt like to use those muscles. The feeling was new to me. After some BW squats at home and some reading, I found that the only explanation for my quad overdevelopment was that my torso was too vertical in my squats, and that while my depth was solid, my too-vertical torso was not adequately stretching parts of my posterior chain.

    I'm back on LP and squatting 290lbs 3x5 now. As long as I lean forward enough, and focus on hip drive, my knees are ok. My first set on Monday was a bit vertical, though, and my knees hurt like a motherfucker. They're still achey, but I believe Rip has advocated training through these pains, so I will.

    To summarize, the activation exercises didn't make my muscles "wake up," but doing the exercises made me realize that I was not properly recruiting my hams/glutes in my squats due to technique errors.

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