Republican Primaries

[Mark E. Hurling]

Oh, I understand that, and there may be something to it.
I'd just be surprised that a European would actually see all that much similarity between Obama and their own Socialist movements, is all.

Ah, got what you mean now. Still, he's done his level best to prove how right Margaret Thatcher was when she said, "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

[DV]

Well I'll try not to disappoint.

1) I wasn't making a statement of hope (no pun intended regarding mr. Obamas slogan). I don't really have a horse in this race, I personally think the US (and the world) is pretty fucked whoever gets presidency. In the media here it just gets portrayed as if Obama is still favourite. Running as an incumbent is usually a pretty big advantage, no?

2) Obama is hardly a socialist, if we define socialists as someone who follows socialist policies and carry them out. Making a health-reform is hardly socialism. It seems to me (once again, with a caveat for my limited knowledge of US politics) that it's a good label to put on him, because - being a bit polemic - if there's something Americans hate as much as Islam, it's Socialists (I note that they didn't have the nerve to call him a communist?). In our context Obama would obviously be on the "right wing", as would Democrats in general, but it's a bit apples and oranges. In Denmark we have a "Liberal" party who, during their 10 years in power, has ensured that the huge public sector got even larger - and they even used it as campaign material for re-election!

3) My main worry is that how the US handles their economy is going to have a huge effect on the rest of us. And I note that it was a Republican who drove the US to the edge, so I'm not sure I'm convinced that they will be so much better than the Democrats for the global economy. And at least they haven't dragged the rest of us to war in Iraq, Afghanistan or other random places.

4) Islam in Denmark is a complex issue. It should be noted that the dude who just killed some 70 people in Norway was a blonde, blue-eyed, true Scandinavian. So crazy can come from all sorts of places. That said, the influx - promoted by the Danish govt - in the 60's and 70's of primarily Turkish immigrants for shitty jobs was a pretty bad idea all in all, when you view it in retrospect.

5) Speaking of crazy, the most crazy shit I've seen come out of the States on the political side has been from the Republican side. This may be due to my limited knowledge, so feel free to post some crazy democrats. Watching FOX is usually a good source of this kind of crazy.

[tertius]

That's about what I'd thought you'd say, DV.

On point 4, that seems to have been a pretty common policy, back in the day. I'm not sure how other countries handled it, but it seems to me that if they treated that immigrant population like Germany, much of the problem is not the immigrants themselves. But I digress.

[DV]

Big difference is, that the US is a country of immigrants - fairly new ones, too. Most European countries are/were mono-cultures until recently. And Islam and Christianity have a history of not getting along. If this is the Europeans fault, the immigrants fault, or not the fault of anyone, I don't really have an opinion on.

To my untrained eye it seems that the Turkish-Germans are more welcomed/doing better than the Turkish-Danish. They even have several on their national football team!

[tertius]

Big difference is, that the US is a country of immigrants - fairly new ones, too. Most European countries are/were mono-cultures until recently. And Islam and Christianity have a history of not getting along. If this is the Europeans fault, the immigrants fault, or not the fault of anyone, I don't really have an opinion on.

To my untrained eye it seems that the Turkish-Germans are more welcomed/doing better than the Turkish-Danish. They even have several on their national football team!

Really? I find that surprising. Most of the Germans I've known were prone to muttering about Turks, etc. And their citizenship policies are kind of crazy. Maybe they've turned it around a bit, and things have gotten better.

My point was more that there seemed to be a lack of forethought on the part of the countries importing labor, in that they didn't seem to get that many of the people coming into the country would want to stay, raise children, and become citizens. And from here in the US, that seems totally reasonable (even if we currently have a huge, vicious, and ugly debate about immigrants going on in the background), but maybe that's not the case in Europa.

The same thing is happening all over Asia, too, oddly enough, with African workers. There's a quite large population of Africans in Seoul, and I gather from friends there that the South Koreans are hella racist about black people, and really dislike having a bunch of Africans living in their city.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Well I'll try not to disappoint.

Not at all. Thanks for asking these questions. I'll be honest, you asked some questions and made some statements in a manner that if an American had done so, I would have an entirely different kind of response. I can't promise to be abandon my own profoundly conservative (American style) predispositions, but I promise to be respectful and as abstract as I can manage in answering and responding to your points here.

1) I wasn't making a statement of hope (no pun intended regarding mr. Obamas slogan). I don't really have a horse in this race, I personally think the US (and the world) is pretty fucked whoever gets presidency. In the media here it just gets portrayed as if Obama is still favourite. Running as an incumbent is usually a pretty big advantage, no?

I understand that you don't have a horse in this race but the Presidency will make a huge difference in allowing the US economy to recover and hence the rest of the world's economy to pulled along with that rising tide. You can see the results of 3 years of Obama, just more stagnation. I also understand why your media portrays him that way. Our mainstream media, by which I mean ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, NPR, and PBS all do the same thing because of their own liberal bias. Alternative media, by which I mean mainly conservative like FOX and many radio stations and syndicated speakers do not agree. By my own lights, I would say know better, but I'm attempting to be fair and balanced and using full disclosure.

2) Obama is hardly a socialist, if we define socialists as someone who follows socialist policies and carry them out. Making a health-reform is hardly socialism. It seems to me (once again, with a caveat for my limited knowledge of US politics) that it's a good label to put on him, because - being a bit polemic - if there's something Americans hate as much as Islam, it's Socialists (I note that they didn't have the nerve to call him a communist?). In our context Obama would obviously be on the "right wing", as would Democrats in general, but it's a bit apples and oranges. In Denmark we have a "Liberal" party who, during their 10 years in power, has ensured that the huge public sector got even larger - and they even used it as campaign material for re-election!

Health care in the US wherein other people pay for someone else's medical care is a textbook example of socialism. Americans don't hate Socialism per se, if you want to pursue it in Denmark and elsewhere, do so. But let me suggest that you and the other countrys who pursue that form of government also undertake to fund their own military and defense responsibilities rather than rely on the overwhelming power, equipment, and numbers of Americans in NATO under which umbrella so many in the EU have lived since WWII and the Cold War so that the social benefits enjoyed by those populations of the EU could be funded. I am not suggesting slavish gratitude for the role the US has played, rather recognition of how all of the EU managed to create these paradises for their people. On the back's of America's people, economy, and their taxes that paid for the hardware that kept the USSR at bay behind the Baltic.

As for your assertion that Americans hate Islam, you are mistaking our determination to remove those who have called for our destruction and downfall as The Great Satan for hatred. We probably have more Muslims in the US in terms of absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population than you do. I might be mistaken, but I work with quite a few in a company that makes very sensitive widgets for our government, our military, and countrys throughout the world. I do martial arts with them, and I see them everywhere on my daily round of travel when not at home or work. We don't make them wear green crescents and there have been very few instances of vandalism to their places of worship or hate crimes directed at them just because they are Muslims. I made an ill considered joke about the wise Imams in the holy city of Seattle in a meeting a few years ago in a meeting and when I later noticed that one of the attendees was named Abdullah, I apologized to him for my insensitivity. First, because I had allowed my alligator mouth to overload my tweetie bird asshole, and secondly because it was wrong. I might also add if he had chosen to take offense to my joke, which he did not, I could have been subject to disciplinary action at my job, and such action might have been justified. So let me assure you, there is little tolerance for anti-Muslim speech or actions here in the US, whatever your own media may lead you to believe.

3) My main worry is that how the US handles their economy is going to have a huge effect on the rest of us. And I note that it was a Republican who drove the US to the edge, so I'm not sure I'm convinced that they will be so much better than the Democrats for the global economy. And at least they haven't dragged the rest of us to war in Iraq, Afghanistan or other random places.

You may not know this, but the Democrats took control of Congress in 2006 and embarked on huge spending that led the US and the rest of the world to where they are today. Don't kid yourself though, the Democrats all voted for the move into the Big Sandbox that freed Afghani women and then tossed out Saddam in Iraq. They just changed their tune when opposition to it worked to their political advantage during elections. Democrats don't want a failure on their watch either. Just look at how Obama took on Libya and ignores Syria where thousands have been killed by their own army and navy. If what you posit were correct, Obama would have left the Middle East to it's own devices much faster than has in fact occurred. Even John Kerry voted for the action in Iraq, before he later voted against it.

4) Islam in Denmark is a complex issue. It should be noted that the dude who just killed some 70 people in Norway was a blonde, blue-eyed, true Scandinavian. So crazy can come from all sorts of places. That said, the influx - promoted by the Danish govt - in the 60's and 70's of primarily Turkish immigrants for shitty jobs was a pretty bad idea all in all, when you view it in retrospect.

Just to be clear, I made the remark I did somewhat in jest because although I know there are problems and tensions in Denmark with respect to Muslims, I don't know a great deal more than that. Hence, I used it as a confession of my own lack of information regarding your own country as you did with mine. You are making a point that while true, had nothing to do with mine. But so be it.

5) Speaking of crazy, the most crazy shit I've seen come out of the States on the political side has been from the Republican side. This may be due to my limited knowledge, so feel free to post some crazy democrats. Watching FOX is usually a good source of this kind of crazy.

I completely understand why our conservatives seem crazy to you. They represent a tradition in this country of trying to live free with a minimum of interference from the government. The US was born as a nation by throwing off the yoke of a heavily taxing, unresponsive monarchy which did little to come to their aid as colonists when England and France were locked in a struggle for North America. We called this the French and Indian War, and the colonists were largely on their own when it came to warding off attacks from both the French and their allies the native american Indians who were killing them and trying to drive them out. The cost of that war was what raised taxes on the colonies in North America and our forebears rebelled. More successful by far than peasant revolts in Europe. So many of us have a permanent distrust of government and taxation which takes money from the productive and gives it to the unproductive.

[Mark E. Hurling]

The same thing is happening all over Asia, too, oddly enough, with African workers. There's a quite large population of Africans in Seoul, and I gather from friends there that the South Koreans are hella racist about black people, and really dislike having a bunch of Africans living in their city.

I'm not at all surprised to hear this. Have you ever talked to black vets from the Korean War?

[tertius]

(snip) So many of us have a permanent distrust of government and taxation which takes money from the productive and gives it to the unproductive.

This is flawed reasoning, in a great many ways.

I'm not at all surprised to hear this. Have you ever talked to black vets from the Korean War?

Nope, I don't think I actually know any Vets at all from Korea, at this point.
Most of my male relatives of the appropriate age are dead, unfortunately.
And none of them were black.

[Mark E. Hurling]

I worked with several as a young cop and talked to a few who were joe citizen vets. The black members of US armed forces were not welcome in Seoul and the women who took up with them became pariahs. Any mixed race children could expect a miserable life provided they survived their teen years.

[tertius]

I will say this: