Narvaez Family Starting Strength Log

[DV]

I truly believe that, with good dietary habits and intelligent programming, I'm going to be able to get most young males to something like 405x5/315x5/495x5 just from various LP schemes.

You need to add "adequate rest" or something along those lines to this. But I'd agree that this would be possible for most novices, provided they are no older than 25 and put the time and effort into achieving those goals. The bench might be a bit high, though. Not everyone is as awesome at life as stonerider. The same sort of goes for deads, I think ending LP in the 450's (for 5 reps) is probably more realistic.

I like your "no resets" strategy outlined below. However it should be said that ramped sets work quite differently for people (in my experience), some need a back-off set to spur progress (i.e. me) while others fry on 5x5 deadlifts fx. This is where having a coach is so handy - it can be tailored to the individual trainee.

[RussB]

You need to add "adequate rest" or something along those lines to this. But I'd agree that this would be possible for most novices, provided they are no older than 25 and put the time and effort into achieving those goals. The bench might be a bit high, though. Not everyone is as awesome at life as stonerider. The same sort of goes for deads, I think ending LP in the 450's (for 5 reps) is probably more realistic.

I like your "no resets" strategy outlined below. However it should be said that ramped sets work quite differently for people (in my experience), some need a back-off set to spur progress (i.e. me) while others fry on 5x5 deadlifts fx. This is where having a coach is so handy - it can be tailored to the individual trainee.

AND

WHen you switch from 3x5 to 5x5 do you lower weights to accommodate the increased volume?

When you say go to 5x5 after a hard stall at 3x5, do you mean to switch to 5x5 ramped or sets across? I'm guessing ramped since you're saying don't reset. If ramped, how do you plan the 4 submaximal sets before the top set? Is the same way you are programming your groups squat LP?

By the way all just to be clear, since I said I am "due" to have my third kid, I mean that my wife is due with our third, and I am along for the ride. Just to be crystal clear on that.
Thanks for the congrats.

[Tom Narvaez]

5x5 ramped. 50%, 62.5%, 75%, 87.5%, 100%
ie: 200x5, 250x5, 300x5, 350x5, 400x5

[Tom Narvaez]

I think it all depends where you're at in training advancement when it comes to the 5x5/3x5 thing. The 5x5 ramped stuff worked the best for me right when I switched to it. At that point, I was probably overreaching a bit and it allowed me to continue to practice at heavy weights while that dissipated. Realistically, if I was doing 365x5x3, I probably could have done 375/380x5 at any time. By taking a full week and a half to get there, my recovery was on point and I was able to display strength better. I was also strong enough, and adapted enough, that I was produced a good amount of tonnage. If I tried doing this at, oh, ~250ish, I don't think it would have worked as well.

Then again, I had a buddy who got to around 230-240x5x3 for bench (I can't remember exactly)and after he switched to 5x5 ramped, he was able to get to 270 by 5s. He switched to 531 instead of trying to microload (which I advised against), and his bench hasn't made a ton of progress since that point, but 531 is a slow-grind type of deal and everyone knows how that goes.

You just have to think of these things in terms of tonnage. 5x5 keeps intensity high, higher in fact, but it reduces the average weight and thus the overall tonnage. For some, this results in too little tonnage to drive adaptation. For others, it seems to be a welcome respite from TOO much tonnage.

For the deadlift, in terms of people I've trained, my problem is not entirely unique, which makes it difficult to gauge the programming. With the bench and press, I've clearly seen better results with MORE volume. I don't know if that is a trend, but some claim that it is. I'll find out more and more as I train more and more people. When it comes to squats, I've got it down to a science.

[RussB]

I think it all depends where you're at in training advancement when it comes to the 5x5/3x5 thing. The 5x5 ramped stuff worked the best for me right when I switched to it. At that point, I was probably overreaching a bit and it allowed me to continue to practice at heavy weights while that dissipated. Realistically, if I was doing 365x5x3, I probably could have done 375/380x5 at any time. By taking a full week and a half to get there, my recovery was on point and I was able to display strength better. I was also strong enough, and adapted enough, that I was produced a good amount of tonnage. If I tried doing this at, oh, ~250ish, I don't think it would have worked as well.

Then again, I had a buddy who got to around 230-240x5x3 for bench (I can't remember exactly)and after he switched to 5x5 ramped, he was able to get to 270 by 5s. He switched to 531 instead of trying to microload (which I advised against), and his bench hasn't made a ton of progress since that point, but 531 is a slow-grind type of deal and everyone knows how that goes.

You just have to think of these things in terms of tonnage. 5x5 keeps intensity high, higher in fact, but it reduces the average weight and thus the overall tonnage. For some, this results in too little tonnage to drive adaptation. For others, it seems to be a welcome respite from TOO much tonnage.

For the deadlift, in terms of people I've trained, my problem is not entirely unique, which makes it difficult to gauge the programming. With the bench and press, I've clearly seen better results with MORE volume. I don't know if that is a trend, but some claim that it is. I'll find out more and more as I train more and more people. When it comes to squats, I've got it down to a science.

I think I see your point. I am likely at the point where it's not a lot of tonnage to cause adaptation. For bench I stalled (microloading) at 227.5# (failed this weight 2 times). Because my press had failed several times at that point I switched over to TM for pressing. I'd like to go back (I've had a rather spotty month scheduling my training and making progress, so it's been almost like a deload) and try the 5x5, but what you're saying makes sense I think, about total tonnage. I'll work it out later, but my initial idea is to maybe then try higher percentages than you outlined above (start at 50% and make 12.5% increases). Any thoughts on that?

Today I tried to implement this approach, and I went with much higher percentages, sort of by feel. My 5 sets of bench were at 160, 185, 200, 210, and top set was 220. I'm going to aim for 225x5 as my top set on Wednesday. You think I should start the ramping at 112.5? That seems excruciatingly low. I often don't start warming up for bench with anything less than 135.

And just to make sure, because I might have opportunity to implement this pretty soon with squats, is this the type of approach you used with squatting? I am reading through your log so I can figure it out myself, but figured I'd throw it out there.

[Tom Narvaez]

I use 50/62.5/75/87.5/100 for squats.

For bench, it might be reasonable to do 60/70/80/90/100. Anything more than that is not remaining true to Madcow's programming.

[DV]

Whoever Madcow was/is, he was obviously a smart dude. That said, Starr (who he got the 5x5 from) would make the jumps so they advanced more or less evenly from the start set which was typically 135.

I have a suspicion that Madcows percentages were "just" so it would make sense in a spreadsheet for all the bros. And it worked. I could be wrong though.

When I've done ramped sets (5x5) I've just tried to space the jumps evenly and it has worked just fine. If you really like the 5x5/ramped deal, you might want to read The Strongest Shall Survive. It's a great book.

[Tom Narvaez]

Yes, I've read lots from Starr as well. He used the evenly spaced jumps to make it easier for the people he worked with to know what was light, what was medium, and what was heavy. He'd have people use the third warm-up from heavy day as the light day weight and the fourth warm-up from heavy day as the medium day weight.

That said, what Madcow did was no accident. Look at the tonnage part of the spreadsheet. It's specifically organized in that manner for a reason. Well, I guess I could be reading more into it that was intended, but I've broken down the calculations and they make a lot of sense. I'll get more specific about that later. Like I said earlier, it reduces the average work set weight, increases the intensity, and decreases overall tonnage compared to SS. This is why it works so well when 3x5 starts producing a bit of overreaching.

For squats and deadlifts, I typically start with 135, anyway. My next planned squat workout is:
135x5, 225x5, 275x5, 335x5, 385x5, 435x5

[njs23]

All hail Mr. Madcow

[Tad_T]

I'm definitely a Madcow fan.

I've played around with the spreadsheet and modified it quite a bit. I have a few versions.

When you start fooling with it and thinking about how it works, you can see the logic in it.