Rip's New Article: Is Olympic weightlifting strength training?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, I'm being serious. Tell us why a weightlifter with no problem with their rack, jerk or keeping the bar close should take time to work on pull ups?

The back is used to keep the bar close and support the rack, neither are an issue for this particular lifter

Arms aren't used much in weightlifting at all.

This is kinda what the article is about, Jamie. There should be NO WEAK LINKS in a lifter. Arms aren't used much if they aren't strong. If your coach teaches you that you don't use your arms and that you don't need arm strength, I suppose you learn to get by without it. And it works well enough to win the Nationals. Have you seen Kurlovich jerk? Pisarenko? Dimas?

[shepard]

Can we stop calling it "efficient" and call it what it is? If you clean more than you can front squat from the rack, you're not efficient, you just can't squat for shit. Some lifters use their speed as a crutch and never learn how to grind in the slower lifts.

[Rachel Crass]

Rachel, thank you for offering up some of this info. For a board of weight-lifting fans, this is like catnip. Can I ask some extra questions?

1. What did your press start at?
2. I've seen a Natalie Burgener video where she says that she's been advised not to increase her press. Were you trying to increase yours?
3. If you were trying to increase your press, what sort of programming were you following for it?
4. Is there a reason why your deadlift and front squat numbers are so close? Typically, the men here have deadlift 1RM = 1.5 x Front Squat 1RM

Catnip. lol! Perfect visual. I've never really talked about my lifting before, and, to be honest, this entire thread has me a bit uncomfortable. I guess I don't get out of my shell much (painfully introverted). I can talk about lifting in general and various philosophies and such, but discussing my own personal training these past few days has certainly put me more than a little bit outside my comfort zone, but I'll do my best.

My press started at 25k. I have no idea why my press was always so crappy. I played soccer for 11 years and could throw the ball from one goal line into the goal on the other side of the field (95 yards?). Not bad for a 16 year-old. But there was just something about the military press that got me. Really, I think it was just that it bored me to tears. I love the quick lifts. Everything about them. The speed, the flexibility, the physics and optimal bar path, that pure, unadulterated, you've-put-in-the-work-now-go-as-fast-as-you-fucking-can-off-the-floor feeling of the Olympic lifts. I just didn't want to do anything else, and when I did something--ANYTHING--other than a snatch, clean and jerk, or squat variation, I just didn't care about it, and I never had a coach explain to me why I SHOULD care.

When I care about something, I go Momma Bear on it. Ain't nothin' gonna stand in my way of it. But if I don't care about something? Eh....I'll go through the motions because it's written on my program, but I could really have cared less if I got better at it or not, because I didn't see the point, and no one explained the point to me.

I know NOW that I should have cared more about it, but it's too late for me now. I'm still providing for a family by myself, and that won't change any time soon. Uninsured 26 year-old spinal patients with nerve damage into both quads aren't exactly fodder for potential sponsors to help offset things to allow me to train again. I've been able to rehab at home for the past 18 months, but making that next leap into full-time training will likely remain a pipedream.

I sometimes wonder what I could have done with my technique AND even moderate strength levels. Hindsight's always 20/20 though, right?

[OCG]

I've seen a Natalie Burgener video where she says that she's been advised not to increase her press.

I've never understood this at all. I mean, even if you're only training something as assistance it should go up over time right? Even if only slowly. So, if you're deliberately keeping something weak, then, why? How is this meant to hinder your Olympic lifting? I just cannot even begin to understand this.

[Rachel Crass]

I've never understood this at all. I mean, even if you're only training something as assistance it should go up over time right? Even if only slowly. So, if you're deliberately keeping something weak, then, why? How is this meant to hinder your Olympic lifting? I just cannot even begin to understand this.

Though I'm always a bit leery of commenting on the philosophy behind other lifters' program designs, Natalie and I lived together for a while at the OTC, and we have trained together quite a bit over the years. Her jerks were incredible. Some of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. If she could clean it, she could jerk it. No doubt in my mind. Simply phenomenal stuff to watch.

At the level Natalie was at, some things that might apply specifically to her situation might not apply to everyone else. She could out press, out pushpress, out jerk, out-upper body everything the rest of us compared to her competition lifts. Her weakness was her leg strength, as it's no secret she's battled hip and knee problems for the past several years.

She didn't have issues jerking AT ALL. It was embarrassing to rotate in with her on jerks, actually. Even though my jerk was higher than my clean, she could take me to school any day of the week when it came to anything upper body. For her to increase her press even more would possibly run the risk of making her shoulders too bulky to fit comfortably in her jerk rack position. Natalie's hands are almost at her snatch grip when she jerks. Extra shoulder mass would make that a little more difficult to get into.

Just my thoughts, but as I said, speculating on another lifter's program design should be taken for what it's worth.

[slowjoe]

I've never understood this at all. I mean, even if you're only training something as assistance it should go up over time right? Even if only slowly. So, if you're deliberately keeping something weak, then, why? How is this meant to hinder your Olympic lifting? I just cannot even begin to understand this.

Rachel has given the "real" reason for the reluctance.

But more generally, she's a weight-class athlete. To stay in the same weight-class, she needs to be careful about changing the composition of her body.

If I recall correctly, it was at the end of a Crossfit Journal video of her and Casey Burgener doing one of the Crossfit WODs which involved 30 x 60kg clean and jerk, so it wasn't exactly an in-depth interview.

[OCG]

For her to increase her press even more would possibly run the risk of making her shoulders too bulky to fit comfortably in her jerk rack position. Natalie's hands are almost at her snatch grip when she jerks. Extra shoulder mass would make that a little more difficult to get into.

How so?

[Rachel Crass]

How so?

It's a little hard to explain. Try this: Next time you front squat, kick your hands out to maybe 2-3 inches narrower than your snatch grip, like Natalie does. Now jerk it like that. Most people have a hard time getting into that position at all with the bar on their clavicles. Some people feel a tweak in their elbows and/or a massive deltoid stretch with that wider jerk grip.

Common sense says the wider grip leaves more room to grow, but the best I can describe it is that it's just really flippin' uncomfortable for most people. For whatever reason, it just is. Maybe people with larger shoulder muscles tend to be less flexible, so it might simply be a correlation rather than a cause/effect thing. Who knows.

I had a Left elbow UCL reconstruction in 2001 and that wider hand spacing torques the crap out of it, so I was unable to kick my hands out that wide to be able to give too much of a first-hand account, although I did go as wide as I could (wider grip shortens the necessary vertical displacement of the bar in order to get it locked out overhead).

I know that's not much of an answer, but try it. I think you'll feel what I'm talking about.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It's a little hard to explain. Try this: Next time you front squat, kick your hands out to maybe 2-3 inches narrower than your snatch grip, like Natalie does. Now jerk it like that. Most people have a hard time getting into that position at all with the bar on their clavicles. Some people feel a tweak in their elbows and/or a massive deltoid stretch with that wider jerk grip.

Common sense says the wider grip leaves more room to grow, but the best I can describe it is that it's just really flippin' uncomfortable for most people. For whatever reason, it just is. Maybe people with larger shoulder muscles tend to be less flexible, so it might simply be a correlation rather than a cause/effect thing. Who knows.

We have found that bigger delts make for a more comfortable place to rest the bar, keeping it off the clavicles much better than smaller muscle bellies. I completely agree that a wide jerk grip is better, and bigger delts usually help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RCe4Q0p1aA

[Rachel Crass]

We have found that bigger delts make for a more comfortable place to rest the bar, keeping it off the clavicles much better than smaller muscle bellies. I completely agree that a wide jerk grip is better, and bigger delts usually help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RCe4Q0p1aA

I love that video of Kurlovich, especially in stark contrast to the normal everyday dude he is now. I still think those red lights were political horsesh*t, but I digress...

I agree about the larger delts creating a better shelf for the bar. For some reason, though, I felt best around 73-74k. The increased size at 75-77k bodyweight for me (lean weight increase. bodyfat never changed much, although I was, admittedly, too soft as a 75. I've since dropped back to 69.) made everything feel really tight and compressed. I've talked to a few other people about that too. Size (imo at least) seems to be on a bell curve of sorts. At some point, the apex is crossed and bigger becomes uncomfortable. Now, where that apex of ideal size is for each lifter? I don't know. We've already sort of established that I'm probably not the ideal source for info on upper body strength. :-\