should I use assistance exercises?

[Dastardly]

Leg extensions have carryover to squats for me. Whenever my squats are getting goodmorning-ish or if I am getting knee pain due to my overdeveloped vastus lateralis and under developed vastus medialis I do a few leg extensions and it gets better.

I need a wide stance in squats to avoid hip impingement but overtime this overdevelops the outer thigh but demands little from inner thigh and not much from rectus femoris either for me. I assume there is a similar effect in everyone with stance as I have noticed the guys who use a narrow stance have bulging vastus medialis.

I agree there is a lot of shear force on the knee, but this does not necessarily mean someone cannot tolerate it if they have strong joints, even if they use heavy weights. But I only use very light weights for reps, which is what I would suggest for most people considering them.

Leg Extensions

Overall, this is a worthless exercise. You place a tremendous amount of shear force on the knees. It also provides virtually no carry over to anything you do.

[LimieJosh]

There are some people that can get strong as hell just doing squats/dl/bench/ohp. But I think more people benefit from doing assistance work. Just look at powerlifting, how many great lifters just do the big 3? .

Horses for courses. A "great lifter" has a completely different level of adaptation than does a person with a 120kg squat and therefore requires something greater for an overoad stimulus, such as the additional volume provided by assistance work.

[Oldster]

I have quite a few friends and family that are coaches, football, baseball and basketball at both HS and college levels. One thing I learned quickly when they would send a few athletes to our weight room was that the average player was very weak, in the weightroom that is. It didn't take long long to make the coaches into believers.

Most young athletes haven't been (in smaller schools) exposed to all of the the biggest and best of movements. So it took little time to really pack on some serious strength. The biggest five movements are usually enough to build enough strength in HS athletes, squat, dead, bench, military and chins. But occasionally we'd run in to the athlete that could benefit from additional work so would work in FS's to compliment BS's, a RDL to give a break from deads, close grip and/or DB benches for bench work, DB militaries and push presses for overhead, and bent or one arm rows to compliment chins. But leg raises or hamstring curls for assistance? Nope.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I would work in Front Squats before I used leg extensions.

[Callador]

I have quite a few friends and family that are coaches, football, baseball and basketball at both HS and college levels. One thing I learned quickly when they would send a few athletes to our weight room was that the average player was very weak, in the weightroom that is. It didn't take long long to make the coaches into believers.

Most young athletes haven't been (in smaller schools) exposed to all of the the biggest and best of movements. So it took little time to really pack on some serious strength. The biggest five movements are usually enough to build enough strength in HS athletes, squat, dead, bench, military and chins. But occasionally we'd run in to the athlete that could benefit from additional work so would work in FS's to compliment BS's, a RDL to give a break from deads, close grip and/or DB benches for bench work, DB militaries and push presses for overhead, and bent or one arm rows to compliment chins. But leg raises or hamstring curls for assistance? Nope.

This is what I am talking about. I think there are some good assistance exercises that can be worked into a football program, especially on off-season program. I get that during the season, they have to limit the amount of weight training they do. I could see just doing a bare-bones (s/b/dl/ohp) type routine during that time.

Dastardly, that is one lifter that doesn't use assistance lifts. I know there are a few others too, but most of the great lifters do some kind of assistance work. Even something like paused squats, close grip bench, etc, would be considered an assistance lift to the big 3. I do see what you are saying about training for PLing vs football, and I do agree that I wouldn't program all sorts of assistance lifts for a football player. I do think there are some quality assistance lifts that could be part of an off-season program though.

[skipbeat]

Oldster nailed what are IMO the best assistance exercises. I'm a bro so I have to add in abs and cheat curls, which fills in any aesthetic desires you're hiding under your squat PRs.

[MEbigUsmall]

In his book, Bill Starr recommends leg extensions and leg curls as assistance for football players.

I have a feeling he is not referring to American football?

[Dastardly]

Even something like paused squats, close grip bench, etc, would be considered an assistance lift to the big 3. I do see what you are saying about training for PLing vs football, and I do agree that I wouldn't program all sorts of assistance lifts for a football player. I do think there are some quality assistance lifts that could be part of an off-season program though.

I think in essence we are agreeing. But I do think a lot of stuff like paused lifts seem too powerlifting specific.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"But I do think a lot of stuff like paused lifts seem too powerlifting specific."

WHat is powerlifting specific about paused lifts?

[DV]

As has been mentioned, Starr - probably the best (north american) strength coach that ever lived - puts in 2x20 leg curls/leg extensions (superset) at the end of the workout on the Big Three (squats, benches, powercleans). I don't think it could do any harm to do these, and it might work. Maybe try it out for a while, and see if you feel that it helps.

Generally with a 120kg. squat, what is going to help you most is getting that lift closer to 200kg., which I think is what everyone is saying, in different ways.