Amusing? Sad? Aggravating?

[frosty-g]

I have found the literalism of the replies so far quite enjoyable.

I am also somewhat amused that a thread about the homeless being fat (people who, particularly the long-term homeless, are defined by their very high rates of mental illness and addiction) has ended up being about Communism.

Though I am actually pretty interested to learn some things about the Cuban sport system.

You reckon I should start a thread about the Cuban sports system? That thread would be a Pandora's box of funny posts! If there's anything you'd like to know you can PM me, hopefully I'll be able to help. I sure as hell ain't about to be starting any thread.

[FatButWeak]

I live in Southern Florida and know many Cubans - from those who came over in 1962 during the Pedro Pan airlifts, to those who came last year. I also know Cubans who (illegally) go visit family members there. Everybody - e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e says it sucks. Are there bright spots? Probably. But life in Cuba blows.

The interesting discussion is not whether life in Cuba would be better if there was free trade with the USA; obviosuly it would be because, if for no other reason, certain goods and supplies that are otherwise non-existent would be extant. No, the interesting debate is whether Cuba could support itself with its own products. It is a very large, very natural resource heavy Island. Almost the size of Newfoundland, it is ten times the size of Hawaii, bigger than Ireland, bigger than Iceland, bigger than . A lot can be grown, mined and manufactured there if the economic system would allow it. Communism has kept those people poor, because even if the US embargo were to continue, a free and open economic system could provide for much of that nations needs and wants. All of it? No prolly, not to maintain a first world modern lifestyle. But certainly all the necessities.

[Mark E. Hurling]

[QUOTE=frosty-g;460869]In all honesty I don't know enough about that, I wasn't involved in weight training at all whilst I was out there. I'd be surprised if you'd find much good quality equipment except for in the sports schools and academies etc, but the equipment I have seen in smaller gyms is all stuff that "makes sense" if you like; all valid equipment and all usable. Anyone who is actually likely going to compete will get to use the better quality equipment. On the other hand I doubt there is a Nautilus, octagonal plate, Smith machine, etc etc on the island except maybe in a hotel gym. Sure as hell ain't a Planet Fitness there unless they have one at the Guantanamo base alongside the McDonalds the US military insist on having there.../QUOTE]

Guantanamo has all manner of good gyms for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. Not only that, but they even have good ones for the people interned there. No doubt with more universal access to them than the residents of Cuba have unless they are party members and show sufficient athletic potential to make the cut to be allowed in one.

As for expert trainers, well like I said I dunno too much about the weightlifting there but the other sports I do know anything about (eg judo, samba, baseball, greco-roman wrestling, boxing, running, basketball) have excellent trainers, very often a former high level champion with an academic and pedagocical background to go with it. And there's lots of them, everywhere. Weightlifting I can't specifically comment on though.
Dues? Well nobody actively hands over a cent in dues, although nothing is "free" one way or another.

All the sports you describe are low cost in terms of equipment and facilities. Just a roof and wood floor and some mats for most of what you described. Add some hoops and gloves and Bob's your uncle. The dues of which you speak are the ones Cubans pay in order to be a loyal party member. By the way, did your minders let you wander around at will? Because you had some there with you whether you recognized that was what they were or not. Just like all visitors and such still get in the PRC, anywhere in the old Warsaw Pact slave states, the USSR, and their successor kleptocracy that reverted to it's old name of Russia.

[Mark Rippetoe]

DPMuller-
"So having no freedom balances quite well with... what exactly? The wonderful health system? Their level of living? With what exactly"
Well you've managed two pretty good ones so far, keep 'em coming and you'll save me a lot of writing mate.

The most revealing part of Frosty's posting so far. This makes him different than me.

[DPMuller]

The most revealing part of Frosty's posting so far. This makes him different than me.

And the most ironic part is that the people that take that particular Faustian bargain lose their freedom and get nothing in return. Industry? What industry? The healthcare system was a disaster in every comunist country - ermbargo or not. Every communist country I visited (Cuba is not on that list) had a few flagship hospitals that were maintained to higher standards for the nomenclature and foreign visitors who paid cash... but other than a few token cases, regular people had to pay bribes to be admitted in decrepit hospitals, pay more bribes if they wanted to actually be seen by a doctor or be given foreign medications (because their countries had trouble even making medication grade aspirin), etc.

And the embargo actually kept the Castros in power by giving them an external enemy to blame their inevitavble failure on - they are darn grateful for it. A communist country will destroy its economy in a few decades whether they are under embargo or not (see the Soviet block) - but Cuba has the excuse of the embargo to blame. And for the record, most of the word ignores the embargo anyway... so it's a particulary small fig leaf.

Anyway, this is as much time I'm willing to spend on an obvious troll who talks about how great Cuba is, but smartly chooses to live in the good old U. S. of A.

[tertius]

The most revealing part of Frosty's posting so far. This makes him different than me.

I would be interested to see in what substantial ways the freedoms of the average Cuban differ from the average American.

My suspicion is that in practice they aren't actually wildly different, especially these days.

I'll also add that the embargo is foolish, and counterproductive. The US's greatest export has always been our culture (for better or for worse). Not engaging in trade has almost certainly extended the duration of the power of the Castros, and delayed reform.

[tertius]

The most revealing part of Frosty's posting so far. This makes him different than me.

I would be interested to see in what substantial ways the freedoms of the average Cuban differ from the average American.

My suspicion is that in practice they aren't actually wildly different, especially these days.

I'll also add that the embargo is foolish, and counterproductive. The US's greatest export has always been our culture (for better or for worse). Not engaging in trade has almost certainly extended the duration of the power of the Castros, and delayed reform.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Anyway, this is as much time I'm willing to spend on an obvious troll who talks about how great Cuba is, but smartly chooses to live in the good old U. S. of A.

Frosty's a Brit, I believe. Poor fucker.

I'll also add that the embargo is foolish, and counterproductive. The US's greatest export has always been our culture (for better or for worse). Not engaging in trade has almost certainly extended the duration of the power of the Castros, and delayed reform.

I couldn't agree more. The best way to make Castros irrelevant would be to lift the embargo completely and let the free market flood the country with American tourist dollars. If we really believe in the free market, that what should have happened a long time ago. The party industry would make it very difficult to operate a communist dictatorship. The only thing that makes any sense as an explanation for the continued embargo is our sugar lobby keeping Cuban sugar out of our markets. They must be very powerful.

[Mark E. Hurling]

The only thing that makes any sense as an explanation for the continued embargo is our sugar lobby keeping Cuban sugar out of our markets. They must be very powerful.

I'm sure that's part of it, but there's also a huge reparations issue looming for Cuba with respect to confiscated property of ex-pats if relations are ever normalized. I've talked to some knowledgeable folks who think that Cuba wants to avoid this and so doesn't kick all that hard in other than a token public breast beating over the embargo.

I do know from some open source accounts that it was the shit hot port of call for the Soviet navy to engage in some friendly comradeship (in the Biblical sense) without fear of being tainted by capitalist pig influence. The clap was another matter.

[mlentzner]

I couldn't agree more. The best way to make Castros irrelevant would be to lift the embargo completely and let the free market flood the country with American tourist dollars. If we really believe in the free market, that what should have happened a long time ago. The party industry would make it very difficult to operate a communist dictatorship. The only thing that makes any sense as an explanation for the continued embargo is our sugar lobby keeping Cuban sugar out of our markets. They must be very powerful.

It's also the Cuban expats. Any time there's talk of lifting the embargo they make a huge stink. It's not clear to me how they can have so much political pull, but they seem to.

Certainly agree that the embargo has only entrenched the regime.