NBA chicken legs

[Will Morris]

Right, thats not what I said. That link you gave me is wrong on so many levels, by his line of reasoning, performing a push press would slow down a front squat or clean... The line of text you quoted explains exactly why thats silly. Hes arguing that you should be accelerating a weight, through the point that you actually need STRENGTH the most, to train that point. a baseball bat weighs a few pounds, the human body weighs a few hundred. One is more dependent on strength than the other.

1) Whoever said a push-press would speed up a front squat? Further, why in the fuck would a fast front squat be of any use to anybody? When performing a clean, the front squat is used to shorten the distance the lifter has to pull the bar. You shorten the distance of the pull, and then pull yourself under the bar, perform a portion of a front squat, then almost every lifter in the world resets at the top of the front squat, then performs a jerk. The speed of the front squat has absolutely no bearing on the clean whatsoever.

2) A baseball bat does weigh a few pounds....a human body can weigh a few hundred....does this mean the laws of physics are applied differently to these bodies?

3) Have you ever seen someone do a full ROM squat? If you haven't, I will describe what happens. The lifter lowers the weight to just under parallel, at this point, the lifter decelerates the bar to a stop, reverses the movement of the bar, and as the lifter begins the ascent, he is being placed in a greater and greater mechanical advantage as he raises up. As the lifter gains more of a mechanical advantage, he is able to direct more effective force into the bar. This will result in the bar increasing speed. Haven't you ever noticed the speed of the lockout in even the heaviest squats ever performed? It is never the top half of the squat that gets a lifter in competition. This mechanical advantage is precisely why quarter squatters boast such high numbers.

[Kyle Aaron]

I think the fundamental disconnect here is one of experience. On the one hand we have people who have done these lifts and/or some sport competitively, and/or have coached others to do these lifts and/or some sport competitively. On the other hand we have people who haven't.

It's hard for the two groups to speak productively to each-other when the inexperienced ones consider that their opinions ought to hold equal weight with the experienced ones. The experienced ones have to explain the very basics, but the inexperienced ones reject those basics. It's like we're trying to write to each-other in English but one of us questions the value of the English alphabet.

I wouldn't claim to have anywhere the knowledge of someone like Rip on barbell training. But I do at least know and use the same alphabet as him.

[Hercp]

I agree with what youre saying, and I know you said thats a hypothetical example, but thats not what they are programmed for. building strength at that range of motion, especially the reversal point (or within a few degrees of it, err on the lower side always) is used for a.) it allows a supra maximal load to be used, for potentiation, and b.) golgi tendon inhibition improvements.

Nearly always, the highest jumps come from the fastest pre stretch/ dip. Guys that dont jump well are often cued to "go down faster" or "get a faster approach", but when they try it, they "shut down" and end up getting lower, or hurt. Theyre not strong enough, in THOSE POSITIONS. If youve been only full squatting for a long time, take 85% of your max and try to reverse it at half depth. Most of the time its harder, the same reason that most those guys squat down so low when they jumps, and dont get anything out of a longer approach. There is a more "optimal" point to jump from, for the same reasoning that you dont see oly lifters jerk from a full front squat. Getting efficient in that rom is a good idea if you want to improve much, especially from a run in.

The part of the jump where strength is really dominant, is the very low end of the rom. Acceleration takes over after that, and everyone in the world can lie on their back and extend their legs as fast as the highest jumpers in the world, speed isnt the limiting factor, rfd AT THE REVERSAL point is. Thats where the half squats can help. Strength should be built over a full rom for the main part of training of course, however for specific peaking purposes when gains in the vertical are the goal, there are specific exercises that can help, for a while.

Its funny half squats get such a rise out of people, most high level high jumpers have done them for years, and even throwers, oly lifters, etc. use them as well. Theyre not a MAIN LIFT, theyre an assistance exercise, for a specific purpose. The same questioning could easily be about depth drops, or depth jumps. Does everyone need to do them? of course not.. can they help? of course they can, when used correctly.

Well, that's a quite good argument to use the Jerk for better VJ, rather than the half squat. And to get a better jerk (besides technique) you need stronger legs; a better full squat. No need to do half squats. The end.

[devnull]

3) Have you ever seen someone do a full ROM squat? If you haven't, I will describe what happens. The lifter lowers the weight to just under parallel, at this point, the lifter decelerates the bar to a stop, reverses the movement of the bar, and as the lifter begins the ascent, he is being placed in a greater and greater mechanical advantage as he raises up. As the lifter gains more of a mechanical advantage, he is able to direct more effective force into the bar. This will result in the bar increasing speed. Haven't you ever noticed the speed of the lockout in even the heaviest squats ever performed? It is never the top half of the squat that gets a lifter in competition. This mechanical advantage is precisely why quarter squatters boast such high numbers.

Damn that was well said.

[StrongLiftMyBalls]

Well, people can certainly do what they want for kicks. I'm just mostly nonplussed by the number of people who seem to think that it's something to talk about on a strength training forum.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...152#post463152