Rhythm Sections

[MattJ.D.]

Speaking of which, everyone has a built in generational bias to the point where, "they stopped making decent music around (fill in the year you turned 20)" is pretty much a universal view. But, for you musicians out there, looking across the years were the dudes mentioned in this thread really exceptional or are we shining spotlights on the heroes of our collective ute? (Channeling Joe Pesci.)

Speaking of which, everyone has a built in generational bias to the point where, "they stopped making decent music around (fill in the year you turned 20)" is pretty much a universal view. But, for you musicians out there, looking across the years were the dudes mentioned in this thread really exceptional or are we shining spotlights on the heroes of our collective ute? (Channeling Joe Pesci.)

Maybe I'm special but like Red, I was born in 92 and I dislike about 85% of the music of today. Rock & blues are my fav, I can go for heavy and death metal every once in a while, but the death metal has to be very heavy and fast with the drums, I don't care much for the lyrics if you can even call them that.

I think a lot of the music today sounds a like, I don't know how else to say it but it just all sounds generic. Nothing grabs my attention like Zeppelin bringing you up to the edge then just suddenly dropping you, or The Beatles, big fan of them, I actually listened to Abbey Road, The White Album, Hard Days Night, Sgt Pepper, Rubber Soul, Revolver, Yellow Submarine, Magical Mystery Tour, and a few anthologies all tonight at work. I don't know what it is about The Beatles but they get me, those four guys just know how to make a good song together, too bad apart they aren't anywhere nearly as good.

Hip hop and rap I don't really listen to, but I wont judge it either because of that reason. I hate when I hear people say "so and so raper is good because he gets paid x amount per verse" that pisses me off, most stupid fucking logic ever.

[Chebass88]

...Speaking of which, everyone has a built in generational bias to the point where, "they stopped making decent music around (fill in the year you turned 20)" is pretty much a universal view. But, for you musicians out there, looking across the years were the dudes mentioned in this thread really exceptional or are we shining spotlights on the heroes of our collective ute? (Channeling Joe Pesci.)

There always has been & always will be a given amount of really good music. It just takes a while to find it through the vast amounts of nonsense. We also tend to like what we like & typically do not deviate from it - you can see a pattern with the musicians I posted - you can probably guess my ipod playlists easily. So, any rhythm sections I discuss & submit as the "best" will likely come from that subset. I'm not too familiar with Cream / Zeppelin / etc., so I can't include them in my list with any validity.

This is an interesting question - who is the best rhythm section. I tried to view this as a bass player myself. My favorite drummers are the ones I don't have to fight. Some drummers rush, some drag, some bash, some are minimalist, etc. There is nothing worse than playing a multiple hour gig where every note is a fight. For example, over the past 6 years in my current band I've played with three drummers. The first drummer would let his volume get out of control. The next drummer was my brother - technically one of the best musicians I've ever played with - just different musical visions (think technically perfect, metronomic time, minimalist approach). Our current drummer is possibly the best I've ever played with. We are approaching a decent amount of time where I can anticipate what he will play, and fit with it. We get along quite well also. He has steady time, and is always conscious of volume.

Some others that play REALLY well together (but maybe not the best)
Oscar Peterson Trio (Ray Brown - bass, Oscar Peterson - piano, Ed Thigpen - drums).
Soulive - exceptionally tight & play very well together (Neal Evans / Alan Evans / Eric Krasno on Guitar)
Medeski, Martin & Wood (Billy Martin - drums, Chris Wood - bass, John Medeski - keys)

[JM3]

I am partial to the purity and power exhibited by power trios especially. Once you get eight or ten guys up there paying bongos and what not it kind of dilutes it for me. Often I don't even want keyboards in there.
'?

I play a ton of trio. its fucking hard- its a juggle.. and I play percussion in a big band and totally feel that- half the shit people play is just canceling itself out in the ear- and they jack it up in the system making it worse.. but one cool thing about doing it- you only have to hit hard- not think hard- unless its latin music

[JM3]

There always has been & always will be a given amount of really good music. It just takes a while to find it through the vast amounts of nonsense. We also tend to like what we like & typically do not deviate from it - you can see a pattern with the musicians I posted - you can probably guess my ipod playlists easily. So, any rhythm sections I discuss & submit as the "best" will likely come from that subset. I'm not too familiar with Cream / Zeppelin / etc., so I can't include them in my list with any validity.

This is an interesting question - who is the best rhythm section. I tried to view this as a bass player myself. My favorite drummers are the ones I don't have to fight. Some drummers rush, some drag, some bash, some are minimalist, etc. There is nothing worse than playing a multiple hour gig where every note is a fight. For example, over the past 6 years in my current band I've played with three drummers. The first drummer would let his volume get out of control. The next drummer was my brother - technically one of the best musicians I've ever played with - just different musical visions (think technically perfect, metronomic time, minimalist approach). Our current drummer is possibly the best I've ever played with. We are approaching a decent amount of time where I can anticipate what he will play, and fit with it. We get along quite well also. He has steady time, and is always conscious of volume.
)

A drummer can play as loud or quiet as he wants- in his space. I like a drummer who claims his space and tells the story - as high up in the mix as he wants to be.
Drummers fucking around on their cymbals- while their foot isnt doing jack shit piss me off.
If a drummer has a ton of energy- it should be on his foot and not on his cymbals- particularly when he is hitting cymbols on obvious beat

Having played the other side- busy bass players jumping around and not actually covering the downbeat side are often the problem- Ive been that guy and had to work with that guy. I was actually that guy on my own forthcoming cd and had to turn myself down I was so pissed at how I played.

Drummer- every beat and any beat- just stay the fuck there and build from the bottom.
Bass player the down beat. not the weak beat. and low register.

In most working (non exploratory) contexts- Problem generally solved.

oh- and excellent that this is in food and drink.

[Chebass88]

My dislike of drummers bashing is this - when playing a small bar & the audience cannot hear the vocals, guitars (with amps), keys (with an amp through the mains), and despite 400W & digging in I can't hear myself play - it is too loud.

I've worked on not overplaying for the past few years. I overplayed for many years - honestly until I played with my brother. He is such a minimalist player, it became an auditory nightmare - his underplaying & my overplaying. So I had to reduce it to sound halfway decent.

PM me when you get your CD done & I'll buy a copy. We are working on one now also - I'm happy with the bass lines.

[bob g]

This is a fascinating discussion, fellas.

oh- and excellent that this is in food and drink.

I'm glad I made the mistake and put it in here. The usual knuckleheads have left it alone.

Have any of you listened to Benny Goodman's "Live at Carnegie Hall" 12 minute version of "Sing, Sing, Sing"? Man, I wish the recovery technology was advanced enough to recapture a clean production of this one. It may be one of the tightest, best played pieces ever laid down. There was a group of guys in their mid to late twenties that were absolutely on and playing a sound that nobody was ready for. The world was used to standards and crooning. This was a canon blast. If you listen to Krupa's intro, the interplay between the two leads, Goodman and James, the change of themes and tempos and the handing off of solos you hear the ABB sound from the Fillmore recordings 34 years later.

When my oldest played first saxamaphone in the HS jazz band I would listen to the selections and think a hot band could handle a well though out arrangement of anyone's best. In my mind's ear I can hear the Allmans do "Sing, Sing, Sing" or Goodman do "Mountain Jam". These are really timeless pieces, now if someone would just pull it off for me.

[bob g]

...
Some others that play REALLY well together (but maybe not the best)
Oscar Peterson Trio (Ray Brown - bass, Oscar Peterson - piano, Ed Thigpen - drums).
...

When my daughter played tenor sax in HS the Northern Illinois University Jazz Band would come up for an all day teaching and performance experience for our kids. They would do group instruction through the day, break into groups to go to host kid's houses for a home cooked dinner (we were told the second year we did this that the NIU kids would elbow each other out of the way to get to eat at our place), the HS would perform and then NIU would perform with a guest artist. One year Ed Thigpen was the guest artist. Man, talk about playing soft but with a purpose. At one point the whole crowd was sitting slack jawed in their seats as Mr. Thigpen played a melody on his drums. Don't ask me how he did it but he did. It was an amazing day and night.

[Joe Murphy]

Speaking of trios... and, you know, the only bad thing about Bonamassa is he's simply not aggressive enough... ;{'>

[JM3]

My dislike of drummers bashing is this - when playing a small bar & the audience cannot hear the vocals, guitars (with amps), keys (with an amp through the mains), and despite 400W & digging in I can't hear myself play - it is too loud.

I've worked on not overplaying for the past few years. I overplayed for many years - honestly until I played with my brother. He is such a minimalist player, it became an auditory nightmare - his underplaying & my overplaying. So I had to reduce it to sound halfway decent..

I play new orleans music- which is such a sub genre that hiring drummers is a quasi nightmare- I literally have to tell my drummers- "I need three times as many notes half as loud" Most drummers playing older jazz here in DC play 1) front side swing 2) swing generally. Nola (as was pointed out earlier by the Zigaboo/Porter comment) is hard to play well because you ALWAYS have one cat swinging while the other cat doesn't. when you get a drummer who knows about the "ands" of 2 and 4 that house gets built and we get dancers- everything else is just 'dixieland' a term which drives me nuts- because thats just a really interesting black style de-syncopated and jacked up real fast. I can and often do it - but the only fun is the speed.

As a bass horn player working with drummers- when you say "fight" its literally a fight I can lose to the point of physical exhaustion if my guys aren't playing right.
Ive basically given up trying to get this across because they all have music degrees and
dont listen to me.

Ill let you know chebass, Spar is actually doing the web store for me!! I can shoot you a track or two if you PM me your address- its done Im just waiting on the mastering. Ill shoot you the one where my bass playing sucks- Im also on percussion on that track and those parts pulled it through- its a study in musical rescue.

[JM3]

, talk about playing soft but with a purpose. At one point the whole crowd was sitting slack jawed in their seats as Mr. Thigpen played a melody on his drums. Don't ask me how he did it but he did. It was an amazing day and night.

isnt it amazing at how powerful playing soft can be?