Weightlifters deriding the low bar back squat

[Mark Rippetoe]

I am not regarded as an authority on Olympic weightlifting by these people. I have already said, in writing in several places with copious illustration and logical argument, everything I have to say about this, so you already know my opinion. This is merely internet shitstirring, and I'm not interested in playing with you kiddos. If the greatest Olympic weightlifters in the United States want to squat lighter weights with the bar on top of their traps and deadlift 20k over their cleans, LET THEM.

As you may know, I am away from my office. Remind me next week and I'll post the video of the LBBS-ing weightlifter, if your google-fu is inadequate.

[elVarouza]

I'm no expert on weightlifting, but I recall hearing about a lifter who did the low bar squat all the time; ended up with a snatch higher than his C&J

Maybe that's because the lifter has a shitty C&J. Anything you can throw over your head you can get to your shoulders.

Why does this topic always get beaten to death so much? Weightlifters with 200kg 1RM back squats (if that) zealously argue about high bar vs. low bar while 77kg athletes from other countries warm up with 280kg squats. Maybe it's not the bar position that's the problem here?

[FatButWeak]

thanks, I will have to revisit SS, but I dont recall seeing a section that explained mixing strength training with olympic lifting.

Strength is a general attribute needed for sports. Weightlifting is a port.

An athlete who gets stronger (without signficantly increasing his bodyweight, for argument's sake) almost always gets better at his sport. Not worse. In a barbell sport like weightlifting, where admittedly technique is important, increasing one's general/overall/fullbody levels of strnegth should be considered a priority, no? Did Mark McGwire lose batspeed when he got stronger (and bigger)? Did Ben Johnson lose speed when he got stronger (and bigger)? Fuck no.

While it may be true that the strongest motherfucker in the world may not be the best weightlifter, it seems just as true that a weightlifter can become better just by being stronger without regard to improvemenets in technique. The reason I can clean and press 135#s and my sister cannot has nothing to do with technique - neither of us has cleaned and pressed a barbell more than 10 times in our life; neither of us has had any isntruction in the Oly lifts; neither of us has had any coaching - its all about strnegth. I have a much stronger body than my sister. Period.

Get stronger, become better at your sport. Period.

[elVarouza]

Donny stating in his opinion John is one of the greatest snatchers to ever live?


Looking forward to see the numbers he puts up in the olympics.....

I didn't listen to the podcast, but in the past Donny has said Jon is one of the greatest clean snatchers he's ever seen.

[IndividualThoughtPatterns]

Just to make it clear- there is a huge gap between finding one video where lifter squats with one style and a claim he is using it all the time and that made him better. This goes for both way- HB and LB.
The point of the post- it's useless to post a video just so that someone 'proves' what (s)he is saying.

[Shaun]

these guys are internationally-competitive athletes

I thought they were American weightlifters?

[Simma Park]

of course I do, I am just restating what Donny Shankle and Jon North said last week in their podcast, and asking your opinion, thats all. I think its a fair question for an authority on the topic. From the continual chant here of 'just do the program' means that either no one here is doing/has done a typical SS strength routine while simultaneously working the olympic lifts, or the answer is purely black and white, the two are mutually exclusive.

Many people have done the SS:BBT novice progression while doing other sports. There are lots and lots of posts on here about balancing novice strength progression with other activities. They basically boil down to either doing the program as written and putting off doing taxing sport-specific stuff (remember that the novice program is not supposed to be a long-term endeavor--it can be seen as a period of investment to improve long-term performance), or trying different strategies to manage recovery through increased caloric intake, more sleep, and/or additional rest days, and probably an earlier incorporation of advanced novice light/recovery days. Which approach you take depends on a lot of things including your age, lifestyle, and natural recovery ability.

[Chris Puckett]

sorry if you think I am trying to stir shit, I dont think any of my comments are inflammatory or disrespectful, annoying maybe but I dont want to come off as such. I literally have not been to this forum in nearly 4 years, and have used SS successfully in the past(documented here) and have the utmost respect for the program and information presented in your books, which I have read years ago. I heard this last week and wanted to ask you, I probably could have spent more time Googling it.

[RRod]

Some of my own thoughts on taking the LB challenge can be found here:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=31648

Here's a little test to try that I found personally a bit eye opening: Put your lifting shoes on, stand beside a mirror, put your hands in a back-squat like position (without a bar), set your feet in normal squat position, set your back tight, and do a "hindu squat"; let your knees shoot way forward and at the bottom be on your toes with essentially an upright torso. Essentially, maximize how much your knee is flexing at the bottom of the squat.

Now do this: Keeping your knee as flexed as possible, shift your weight back along your foot until the whole foot is on the ground and you feel the balance over the midfoot. This is, essentially, your body's "squatest" squat that has midfoot balance with maximal knee flexion. Now if you will, look in the mirror, and note the part of your back that is over the midfoot. For *my* body, this ended up being pretty much where the LB squat would have you put the barbell.

What this means is that, for me, putting a loaded bar in that position maintains balance over the midfoot for this position. Putting the bar higher up the back shifts the balance of the system forward, and thus forces you to either move your shins back or make your back angle more vertical. The latter option is the natural response, as shifting the bar up adds more relatively to the lever arm at the hip, which your body tries to reduce.

The sum of all this is that, for me, the HB tends to remove hip flexion more than it adds knee flexion. So the there is a strong argument for the LB winning in terms of overall strength development. That as a weightlifter I would still need specific strength in the front squat position goes without saying. The thing is, though, that people who do HB *still* do front squats. And really, my squat is so far above my lifts that there's actually little reason that I need anything other than one type of squat to push up strength gains for now.

That HB squatting OLifters still do FS is telling. My experience, with my own squats and watching others, is that the "bad" habit that LB squatters have of leaning over coming out of the hole *still* happens to HB squatters, the longer lever magnifying the error for the lighter load. Thus the specificity of the HB to the clean (due to it's "better" similarity to the FS than the LB) is, I think, not necessarily made manifest for many lifters. And thus they must still FS. So if you're going to do two squats anyway, why not choose the other squat to be the one that adds in the most hip?

Wrapped up in all this too is the confounding of the two concepts of bar position and squat depth. Many OLifters associate the LB position with a just-parallel squat, but it is possible to take a LB squat below parallel, just as its possible to stop a HB squat at parallel.

All of this is a pretty big change of belief for me, but that's how life is.

[Tom Narvaez]

Coincidentally, I finally convinced a long time PL friend of mine to try out power cleans. Today he power cleaned for the first time, EVER. He got 225x1 with ease. As far as the technique goes, let's just say it was "suboptimal". What makes this even more interesting is that he has been pulling exclusively sumo for 6+ months. His best SS-style, low-bar squats are 475x1, 405x6, and 355x12.

Low bar doesn't work to increase your cleans? Ok.