Holder Found in Contempt

[DPMuller]

the 5.56 is also the highest muzzle velocity of any hand held weapon from what I remember reading, 3200 feet/second.

Keep it simple, Jamie. Gun knowledge is just theoretical in the UK.

And I've moderated my previous post just 'cause slowjoe is a good person.

[bowdirk]

Of course Executive priviledge is BS - it's nothing more than the government stating that the laws apply to everybody else but the government.

But talking about being silent... what about that Fortune article you were so keen on talking about? Lost some enthusiasm after realizing that even the most biased pro-government "reporter" who had oh so convenient access to the critical government employees and documents has to admit that the government was running the guns into Mexico?

Of all the scandals and Fucked up Things that our government has done in the 40 years I have been trying to pay attention this 'Fast and Furious' scandal and coverup doesn't even get into the top 100 things to be pissed about.

That is why when I hear the OUTRAGE! and CONCERN! from some corners it just strikes me as partisan bitching.

Just my perspective.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Comparing rifles by caliber only is silly. If you'd be allowed to own guns in the UK, you might have a better chance of understanding that stopping power only matters if a rifle is capable of hitting the target in the first place.

Well sure, but remember those 40 round magazines? From everything I've read the AK is reasonably accurate although no sniper rifle. You need a Dragunov for that is you're going the full Rooskie.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Of all the scandals and Fucked up Things that our government has done in the 40 years I have been trying to pay attention this 'Fast and Furious' scandal and coverup doesn't even get into the top 100 things to be pissed about.

That is why when I hear the OUTRAGE! and CONCERN! from some corners it just strikes me as partisan bitching.

Just my perspective.

I guess that dead US agent doesn't count huh? Or the thousands of Mexicans?

[bowdirk]

I guess that dead US agent doesn't count huh? Or the thousands of Mexicans?

Thats not what I said. And not what I meant to imply. And you know it Mark.

People in the singles and thousands and millions die due to bad policy decisions both domestically and internationally.

This seems to be the classic case of '1 death is a tragedy, millions of deaths are a statistic'.

So Mark, what do you think of the past usage of Executive Privilege?

[Mark E. Hurling]

Thats not what I said. And not what I meant to imply. And you know it Mark.

No I didn't know it, but I'll accept that you may have worded your comment inartfully.

This seems to be the classic case of '1 death is a tragedy, millions of deaths are a statistic'.

See now, I'd accept the inartful possibility more readily if you hadn't said this.

So Mark, what do you think of the past usage of Executive Privilege?

Executive Privilege invariably raises a flag for the media, the investigating entity, and the public. No matter the party of who invokes it. It makes them look less credible and more likely to be trying to hide something no matter what the truth of the matter is.

[tertius]

Of all the scandals and Fucked up Things that our government has done in the 40 years I have been trying to pay attention this 'Fast and Furious' scandal and coverup doesn't even get into the top 100 things to be pissed about.

That is why when I hear the OUTRAGE! and CONCERN! from some corners it just strikes me as partisan bitching.

Just my perspective.

Agreed. Very few people have consistently sounded a drum on this. The only one that springs readily to mind is Glenn Greenwald.

The main reason most people seem to give a shit about the use of executive privilege in this instance is that a) an American was killed (as opposed to say, a bunch of brown, muslim people getting beaten, tortured, or killed) and b) someone has linked it to the ludicrous idea that Obamer is gunna take ma guns! Oh, and also they hate the Obama Administration.

Many of the same people think it's totally fine to use the same claims when talking about overseas operations, and were deeply incensed by Wikileaks.

Personally, if I were the administration, and had any legitimate concerns for the security of ongoing operations (which they wouldn't discuss), informants, etc, etc, I wouldn't turn over the documents, because there are almost certainly members of Congress with a sufficient ax to grind (during an election year) that they would leak things indiscriminately, regardless of who it would endanger.

Maybe Holder is just trying to save his bacon, or not make his boss look bad. Maybe there's a lot of other information that is tied to this operation about the Cartels and our operations against them that they don't want getting out. There's not enough public data to really know one way or the other. That's really frustrating, but I also can't blame the Obama administration for not feeling very trustful of Congress, at the moment.


Oh, and MEH, I didn't realize that foreign made weapons couldn't be engraved, stamped, or otherwise marked for tracking purposes.
That's a neat trick, to make weapons that can't have a serial number added after the fact.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Oh, and MEH, I didn't realize that foreign made weapons couldn't be engraved, stamped, or otherwise marked for tracking purposes.
That's a neat trick, to make weapons that can't have a serial number added after the fact.

Methinks you are having me on a bit here, but perhaps you didn't quite take the point I was making. Of course the AK's could be stamped later, but a big part of the early talking points before Fast and Furious blew back in the administration's face was that US guns were fueling violence and resulting in people killed by the cartels. Now maybe BATF could have done that with the AK's but they used US made guns. I may be making an unwarranted assumption about the make of the weapons, but if I'm wrong about this correct me. When the AK's are stamped out in the PRC they don't have a serial number though.

Another aspect of this were the favorable characteristics of the AK's suitable to the needs of the end users in relatively unskilled hands. Plus the low price, the availability, and the relative ease of getting them into Mexico's East or West Coasts or it's Southern border. Why hassle with ICE, the Border Patrol, and who knows who else? The PRC is already heavily engaged in building a shipping port on Mexico's West coast that will dwarf Los Angeles and San Diego facilities. Not a great leap to have some containers of "stuff" get diverted with a little mordida paid out.

So the total weapons used by the cartels from the US and made by Colt, S&W, Remington, Winchester, or H&K, Glock, Beretta, etc. is dwarfed by the AK's and other such.

[Philbert]

the 5.56 is also the highest muzzle velocity of any hand held weapon from what I remember reading, 3200 feet/second.

Your source is not particularly good, there are a number of rifles that can surpass 4,000 feet/second and a few that can reach 5,000 with specialized ammunition.

Oh, and MEH, I didn't realize that foreign made weapons couldn't be engraved, stamped, or otherwise marked for tracking purposes.
That's a neat trick, to make weapons that can't have a serial number added after the fact.

The relevance of the untraceability of Chinese firearms is not they were not given serial numbers when legally imported to the US (they were stamped with serial numbers and were as traceable as any other firearm). The untraceability argumeny relates to a BATFE claim I have not seen mentioned in this thread, that X% of the guns seized from the cartels and traced were traced to US sales. The statistic made it sound like gun shows in border states were the primary source of cartel armament, until one realized that the BATFE can only reliably trace weapons acquired from private US sellers or US military and police aid to Mexico, and untraceable weapons, not US weapons, make up the majority of seizures.

[mstrofbass]

The main reason most people seem to give a shit about the use of executive privilege in this instance is that a) an American was killed (as opposed to say, a bunch of brown, muslim people getting beaten, tortured, or killed) and b) someone has linked it to the ludicrous idea that Obamer is gunna take ma guns! Oh, and also they hate the Obama Administration.

Um, what? You realize that executive privilege was claimed last week? This week? People aren't pissed off about the executive privilege, they're pissed off about the stonewalling, of which the executive privilege is just another way to do it.

Many of the same people think it's totally fine to use the same claims when talking about overseas operations, and were deeply incensed by Wikileaks.

Again: um, what? What does Wikileaks have to do with this? They aren't in any way comparable.

Personally, if I were the administration, and had any legitimate concerns for the security of ongoing operations (which they wouldn't discuss), informants, etc, etc, I wouldn't turn over the documents, because there are almost certainly members of Congress with a sufficient ax to grind (during an election year) that they would leak things indiscriminately, regardless of who it would endanger.

For a third time: um, what? Ongoing operations? Since when is Fast and Furious ongoing? Since when can documents not be redacted? Since when is it a reasonable assumption that thirty thousand documents requested about a program that is no longer going on are so sensitive that NONE OF THEM can be turned over?

Maybe Holder is just trying to save his bacon, or not make his boss look bad. Maybe there's a lot of other information that is tied to this operation about the Cartels and our operations against them that they don't want getting out. There's not enough public data to really know one way or the other. That's really frustrating, but I also can't blame the Obama administration for not feeling very trustful of Congress, at the moment.

For a fourth time: um, what? They're claiming privilege over INTERNAL DELIBERATIONS, not documents containing sensitive information. If they wanted to claim there was information they didn't want out, they very well could do that, but they're not.

Also, are you completely ignoring how much top secret information Congress currently has about operations that are much, MUCH more sensitive than this?