Having Trouble Balancing Diet With GOMAD Approach

[mstrofbass]

inb4 you start talking about Zach Evetts again and how glycogen storage, water retention, etc. is relevant to how much "LBM" one can gain in an arbitrary time period. brb taking 50g of creatine a day. brb just gained 5lbm in one week.

At least I don't make a claim that I can't back up with anything but an anecdotal story or two.

[Briks42]

OK, I'll bite: tell me who. Names, I mean. Don't include Tom Narvaez, he did it when he wasn't skinny.

Msingh gamedog skipbeat and Tom all come to mind off the top of my head as people who regretted their fat gain/muscle gain ratio after the fact. Even though the OP is skinnier, it's hard to put on much more muscle than 1 pound a week, it doesn't mean a slower and steadier course wont be better.

[Tom Narvaez]

At least I don't make a claim that I can't back up with anything but an anecdotal story or two.

As usual, you're not making any claim what-so-ever. Some things don't have quite enough evidence to be convincingly proved in the arena of scientific academia. That doesn't mean anecdotes hold no practical value. For example, 3x5 is just born out of experience. Rip admits this in PP. There are no studies to corroborate that this blend of volume, intensity, and frequency is optimal. He just has a variety of case studies parked in the back of his head over thirty years. What anecdotes do we have for rates of muscle gain exceeding 1lbs per week, anyway? I'm sure there aren't many.

In any case, there have been studies done on rate of muscle gain. Lyle referenced them in the previous debate. They were dismissed because the trainees, supposedly, weren't doing an effective training program. In other words, they weren't doing SS, lol.

I have much more than one or two anecdotes. I assume that you do not. I train more than a dozen people and I correspond with several dozen more over the internet. I'm speaking from personal experience. I assume, again, that you are not. However much value my opinion holds, based purely on the experience and anecdotes of several dozen people, depends on the framework of knowledge that a given reader is operating from. Obviously, for you, that's not much. I don't care, though. Your argument is thoroughly unconvincing to me as well.

[Carlos Daniel]

Msingh gamedog skipbeat and Tom all come to mind off the top of my head as people who regretted their fat gain/muscle gain ratio after the fact. Even though the OP is skinnier, it's hard to put on much more muscle than 1 pound a week, it doesn't mean a slower and steadier course wont be better.

You mention msingh and expect me to take you seriously? I'll waste my time and explain what happened with msingh: he was ALREDAY FAT and for strange reasons he thought it would be a good idea to chug down a GOMAD and I think he even added ice cream to his milk. Gamedog wasn't skinny either and I don't know skipbeat well enough to comment on his situation. Tom, as I already mentioned, started GOMADing AFTER he was at around 18% bf.

Now, we have a 5'10 newbie who weight what I, as a 5'7 young man, weighted before lifting. I looked very skinny, I can't imagine how skinny he must be right now. I had to go up to 180 lbs to start getting chubby. Now we have a Auschwitz victim survivor who wants to eat 3000 kcal and expects to grow well on it.

I'm well aware that I'm being kind of a dick but this stuff bothers me. If there's any demographic that should do GOMAD, it's a 140 lbs 5'10 dude who trains hard. What will happen is that he'll lift, stall at some 200 something squat, lose interest and keep squatting 200 for the rest of his existence and think it's OK because he's an ectomorph or whatever and then we'll find him in 5 years curling in the squat getting in the way of someone who ate ate enough and now squats 400.

[mstrofbass]

As usual, you're not making any claim what-so-ever. Some things don't have quite enough evidence to be convincingly proved in the arena of scientific academia.

You're right. And, like a reasonable person, I'm not going to make a claim unless I can back it up.

That doesn't mean anecdotes hold no practical value. For example, 3x5 is just born out of experience. Rip admits this in PP. There are no studies to corroborate that this blend of volume, intensity, and frequency is optimal. He just has a variety of case studies parked in the back of his head over thirty years. What anecdotes do we have for rates of muscle gain exceeding 1lbs per week, anyway? I'm sure there aren't many.

There aren't many? Are you saying that Rip is making his claims of > 1 lbs per week based on just a few? There are plenty of SS coaches that will claim anecdotes of > 1 lbs. a week...yet you flat out dismiss those.

In any case, there have been studies done on rate of muscle gain. Lyle referenced them in the previous debate. They were dismissed because the trainees, supposedly, weren't doing an effective training program. In other words, they weren't doing SS, lol.

Links? Cites? I've looked for them, can't find them. I've read multiple articles by Lyle on the subject...no cites.

But, just for the sake of argument, if you saw a study that showed someone using machines and eating 500 calories over maintenance couldn't put on more than 1 lbs. of lbm a week, would you think that the same would hold true for someone doing SS and eating 1000 calories over maintenance?

I have much more than one or two anecdotes. I assume that you do not. I train more than a dozen people and I correspond with several dozen more over the internet. I'm speaking from personal experience. I assume, again, that you are not. However much value my opinion holds, based purely on the experience and anecdotes of several dozen people, depends on the framework of knowledge that a given reader is operating from. Obviously, for you, that's not much. I don't care, though. Your argument is thoroughly unconvincing to me as well.

You're right...it makes much more sense to listen to anecdotes from a person who's been "training" people for a year or two over those of someone who has been doing it for thirty years. That makes sense.

Oh, and I don't need anecdotes, because I'm not making any kind of claim other than the fact that no one can provide a reasonable basis for the claim you're making.

[Tom Narvaez]

There aren't many? Are you saying that Rip is making his claims of > 1 lbs per week based on just a few?

Yes, he readily admits that is very, very rare to find a skinny-ass novice who actually do the program as described. That said, if Zack is supposed to be an example of one of those people, I remain unconvinced. In other words, I think something is wrong with the way he measured body fat.

There are plenty of SS coaches that will claim anecdotes of > 1 lbs. a week...yet you flat out dismiss those.

Actually, no. I haven't seen many (any?) people claim this to be honest. I might be more receptive to the idea if I had.

Links? Cites? I've looked for them, can't find them. I've read multiple articles by Lyle on the subject...no cites.

The one he references in the article on genetic muscular potential. Something about lighter framed individuals gaining slower than heavier framed individuals. I might be motivated to find it later, but likely not. The whole pubmed debate-thing is not for me.

But, just for the sake of argument, if you saw a study that showed someone using machines and eating 500 calories over maintenance couldn't put on more than 1 lbs. of lbm a week, would you think that the same would hold true for someone doing SS and eating 1000 calories over maintenance?

I readily admit that we are discussing anecdote vs. anecdote here for the most part.

You're right...it makes much more sense to listen to anecdotes from a person who's been "training" people for a year or two over those of someone who has been doing it for thirty years. That makes sense.

There are people who have been doing this just as long on the other side of the fence. Like I said above, and like many others have echoed, I doubt the accuracy of body fat calipers in the Evetts case which throws some question onto all such similar claims made by Rip.

"training", huh? lol. Let's not even go down that route. If you want to make fun of the "training" that I do, you're barking up the wrong tree. I work with 16y/o's that are probably stronger than you on every lift, at a lighter body weight, and with better body composition.

Oh, and I don't need anecdotes, because I'm not making any kind of claim other than the fact that no one can provide a reasonable basis for the claim you're making.

I never said it was impossible. You just shouldn't expect it. I think you'd be unreasonable to suggest that these types of gains happen with any normalcy.

[Tom Narvaez]

Carlos, my starting body fat % is irrelevant in the context of how much weight I added to my lifts. Unless you're trying to argue that going from 135 to 315 adds substantially more LBM than going from 225 to 405.

[mstrofbass]

Yes, he readily admits that is very, very rare to find a skinny-ass novice who actually do the program as described. That said, if Zack is supposed to be an example of one of those people, I remain unconvinced. In other words, I think something is wrong with the way he measured body fat.

Someone with very little experience in this arena basing their critique on pictures. Brilliant. You're just trumpeting what others have said, you don't actually know yourself.

There are people who have been doing this just as long on the other side of the fence.

Yeah, and have you actually taken a look at their anecdotes? Give me a list of these people you refer to.

"training", huh? lol. Let's not even go down that route. If you want to make fun of the "training" that I do, you're barking up the wrong tree. I work with 16y/o's that are probably stronger than you on every lift, at a lighter body weight, and with better body composition.

Sorry, "corresponding" with several dozen over the Internet isn't training. And the rest of this is completely irrelevant.

I never said it was impossible. You just shouldn't expect it. I think you'd be unreasonable to suggest that these types of gains happen with any normalcy.

And once again, you've provided no support for why one shouldn't expect it.

[mstrofbass]

The one he references in the article on genetic muscular potential. Something about lighter framed individuals gaining slower than heavier framed individuals. I might be motivated to find it later, but likely not. The whole pubmed debate-thing is not for me.

Here, iz helpz:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...potential.html

[Briks42]

Carlos, 3000 calories is more likely to add weight to a 140 poun guy than to a 180 pound guy. If he begins to struggle or stall as he moves along, he can add more, which I suggested and he mentioned. But doing GOMAD when you are lifting light weights is complete unnecessary and going to add un-needed bodyfat to someone. This isn't a race and the people who treat it as such tend to get fat, néed to cut, and end up not being nearly as strong as they thought they were after cutting.