Having Trouble Balancing Diet With GOMAD Approach

[Tom Narvaez]

Someone with very little experience in this arena basing their critique on pictures. Brilliant. You're just trumpeting what others have said, you don't actually know yourself.

While it is difficult to accurately estimate body fat % from pictures, there are visible "markers" that tell you approximately how far out someone is. I actually have more experience with dieting and body fat % then lifting, by far. When something is way out of whack, even a novice can tell.

Regardless, given the nature of the debate, where little real proof exists on either side, "trumpeting" what someone like Lyle says is not the worst position to take. His entire livelihood is based on body composition.

Yeah, and have you actually taken a look at their anecdotes? Give me a list of these people you refer to.

Alan Aragon, Casey Butt, Lyle McDonald, and Martin Berkhan is more than a good enough start. I don't remember every single article I've ever read on the subject, obviously. Can you name another qualified expert, besides Rip and the people directly under and around him, that have anecdotes suggesting you CAN gain more than 1lbs of LBM per week?

Sorry, "corresponding" with several dozen over the Internet isn't training. And the rest of this is completely irrelevant.

I never said it was. That wasn't the point. You said I only had one or two anecdotes. Corresponding with someone frequently is enough to know how fast they've made gains if the topic comes up in discussion.

And once again, you've provided no support for why one shouldn't expect it.

Even Rip, who seems to be the lone source saying this is possible, is claiming it only happens in underweight novices. Seeing as how the vast majority of people are not underweight novices, this is a reasonable assertion to make. Beyond that, my support is still dozens of anecdotes from my friends and myself in addition the testimony of at least four experts on body composition.

[Tom Narvaez]

Here, iz helpz:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...potential.html

At least one study showed that light framed individuals gained less muscle mass compared to heavier framed individuals on the same training program and, at a more basic level, hormones such as testosterone/etc. impact on things like bone growth and frame size. So there is a biologically potential link between frame size and hormone levels that would contribute to trainability and ultimate gains in muscle mass.

This part. This is far from the only one, btw. I just don't care enough to find them. I mean you might even be able to find them by going onto pubmed and just searching some generic keywords.

[mstrofbass]

Alan Aragon, Casey Butt, Lyle McDonald, and Martin Berkhan is more than a good enough start. I don't remember every single article I've ever read on the subject, obviously. Can you name another qualified expert, besides Rip and the people directly under and around him, that have anecdotes suggesting you CAN gain more than 1lbs of LBM per week?

Let's see here:

Alan Aragon - What level athlete is his anecdotal evidence based off of? I'm pretty sure most of his trainees are pretty high level. Also, what's his program like?
Casey Butt - Didn't he work mostly with professional body builders?
Lyle McDonald - I don't even know why you would think his anecdotal evidence is worth shit. We both know he's not a good coach, and most of the people he's going to be working with aren't looking for optimal muscle mass gains.
Martin Berkhan - lol...I mean, seriously? The VAST majority of the people he works with are looking to lose fat, so we know it's not going to be optimal for muscle gains. In fact, how many people do you think he works with are looking for optimal muscle mass gains?

Do you get the point? You can't use anecdotal evidence from people who mostly work with intermediate or higher level trainees or aren't specifically trying to get optimal muscle mass gains. At least three of the people you mentioned are specifically sought out for their knowledge on getting leaner. I don't know much about Casey, though.

I never said it was. That wasn't the point. You said I only had one or two anecdotes. Corresponding with someone frequently is enough to know how fast they've made gains if the topic comes up in discussion.

But it's not enough to know just how well they are doing to program.

Even Rip, who seems to be the lone source saying this is possible, is claiming it only happens in underweight novices. Seeing as how the vast majority of people are not underweight novices, this is a reasonable assertion to make. Beyond that, my support is still dozens of anecdotes from my friends and myself in addition the testimony of at least four experts on body composition.

Seeing as how the OP is an underweight novice, it seems stupid to suggest that he's not likely to make those types of gains. Additionally, Rip is pretty unique in his clientele and expertise. Do you know of anyone who has similar success as him in training novices?

[mstrofbass]

This part. This is far from the only one, btw. I just don't care enough to find them. I mean you might even be able to find them by going onto pubmed and just searching some generic keywords.

I know. There's no cite. And, the study doesn't isn't even on point.

[Tom Narvaez]

Alan Aragon - What level athlete is his anecdotal evidence based off of? I'm pretty sure most of his trainees are pretty high level. Also, what's his program like?

All levels of course. He's now at a level where he is only taking higher paying clients, but that doesn't mean he hasn't trained novices in his life time. Very few trainers start at the top. Almost everybody has to work novices at some point or another.

Casey Butt - Didn't he work mostly with professional body builders?

No. His calculator for natural potential is based off of high ranking natural bodybuilders.

Lyle McDonald - I don't even know why you would think his anecdotal evidence is worth shit. We both know he's not a good coach, and most of the people he's going to be working with aren't looking for optimal muscle mass gains.

If you've read anything by Lyle, he writes everything with "optimal" in mind. Lyle has produced reduces in countless people even if he himself looks like shit.

Martin Berkhan - lol...I mean, seriously? The VAST majority of the people he works with are looking to lose fat, so we know it's not going to be optimal for muscle gains. In fact, how many people do you think he works with are looking for optimal muscle mass gains?

My argument is the same as it is for Alan.

Do you get the point? You can't use anecdotal evidence from people who mostly work with intermediate or higher level trainees or aren't specifically trying to get optimal muscle mass gains. At least three of the people you mentioned are specifically sought out for their knowledge on getting leaner. I don't know much about Casey, though.

Alan generally works with bodybuilders, man. If that isn't about optimal mass gains then what is? I agree with what you're saying to an extent, but who else really "specializes" in novices besides Rip? Just because Rip specializes in novices doesn't mean I'd completely ignore what he has to say about higher level trainees. Isn't that the exact issue he encounters with his points regarding weightlifting? All of the Oly guys dismiss him off hand, regardless of the veracity of his actual argument, because he supposedly doesn't coach anyone. Almost all trainers have a high degree of familiarity with novices and early intermediates because almost all trianees are novices and early intermediates.

But it's not enough to know just how well they are doing to program.

From an anecdotal point of view, why is the testimony of a person regarding their own results not enough?

Seeing as how the OP is an underweight novice, it seems stupid to suggest that he's not likely to make those types of gains. Additionally, Rip is pretty unique in his clientele and expertise. Do you know of anyone who has similar success as him in training novices?

I think it is important to recognize that Rip works with a variety of people at his gym. He is famous for his novice program, among other things, but I don't think it is fair to say that he applied that program to the vast majority of those clients. A lot of people run the program by themselves. I remember Rip saying that his usual membership is something like 50-60 people although I can't recall exactly. I think he has just as much one on one exposure to novices, outside of the seminar arena, as most personal trainers.

Another thing you're missing is that most of the estimates for how fast someone can put on muscle are for the first year. Do you think it's linear for that entire period of time? Or do you think that it starts out higher and then decreases over that time period, to simply give an average of 1 lbs. a week? If, for some reason, you think it starts off at 1 lbs. a week and ends a year later as 1 lbs. a week, you're wrong. And by some simple high school calculus, the only conclusion is that most people can gain more than 1 lbs. a week.

I think this is really the most relevant point right here. While it may be possible to gain more than 1lbs of LBM per week in the initial weeks on the program, that fact is not relevant when advising someone to try and gain 40-60lbs in 3-6 months. The OP in this thread was told to get to 180 or 200 before he even starts worrying about adjusting his intake. I think that is where this whole rate of LBM gain thing becomes a mess. Even if it is possible in the first few weeks, that doesn't suggest that GOMAD should be continued beyond a few weeks.

From a practical perspective, novices often spend quite some time just getting the form right. I don't think it is advisable to bulk during this period without an experienced coach on hand. If you are working on technique rather than using weights that stimulate an adaptation, excess caloric intake is going to result in something rather predictable.

[mstrofbass]

All levels of course. He's now at a level where he is only taking higher paying clients, but that doesn't mean he hasn't trained novices in his life time. Very few trainers start at the top. Almost everybody has to work novices at some point or another.

No. His calculator for natural potential is based off of high ranking natural bodybuilders.

If you've read anything by Lyle, he writes everything with "optimal" in mind. Lyle has produced reduces in countless people even if he himself looks like shit.

My argument is the same as it is for Alan.

Alan generally works with bodybuilders, man. If that isn't about optimal mass gains then what is? I agree with what you're saying to an extent, but who else really "specializes" in novices besides Rip? Just because Rip specializes in novices doesn't mean I'd completely ignore what he has to say about higher level trainees. Isn't that the exact issue he encounters with his points regarding weightlifting? All of the Oly guys dismiss him off hand, regardless of the veracity of his actual argument, because he supposedly doesn't coach anyone. Almost all trainers have a high degree of familiarity with novices and early intermediates because almost all trianees are novices and early intermediates.

And I'm not dismissing the ones you mention, I would just be surprised if they're as good at training the population that we're discussing as Rip and his clan. I don't think their anecdotal evidence is nearly as strong as you, and others, make it out to be.

From an anecdotal point of view, why is the testimony of a person regarding their own results not enough?

Because of the sheer number of variables that exist, and the fact that most people are not very good at objectively assessing themselves. (That's not an insult, that's just the way we are.)

I think it is important to recognize that Rip works with a variety of people at his gym. He is famous for his novice program, among other things, but I don't think it is fair to say that he applied that program to the vast majority of those clients. A lot of people run the program by themselves. I remember Rip saying that his usual membership is something like 50-60 people although I can't recall exactly. I think he has just as much one on one exposure to novices, outside of the seminar arena, as most personal trainers.

I agree completely. But, I would guess he's had more exposure than the people listed above, and has had better success (although this is purely speculation).

I think this is really the most relevant point right here. While it may be possible to gain more than 1lbs of LBM per week in the initial weeks on the program, that fact is not relevant when advising someone to try and gain 40-60lbs in 3-6 months. The OP in this thread was told to get to 180 or 200 before he even starts worrying about adjusting his intake. I think that is where this whole rate of LBM gain thing becomes a mess. Even if it is possible in the first few weeks, that doesn't suggest that GOMAD should be continued beyond a few weeks.

You'll notice I never disagreed with you. I just think setting proper expectations is important, and by setting a supposed "upper limit" on what a person might reasonably expect to gain with regards to LBM, you may have the opposite effect of causing them to not eat enough, thinking they're gaining too much weight.

From a practical perspective, novices often spend quite some time just getting the form right. I don't think it is advisable to bulk during this period without an experienced coach on hand. If you are working on technique rather than using weights that stimulate an adaptation, excess caloric intake is going to result in something rather predictable.

Yes, I would generally agree that for the first two to four weeks, it's probably not necessary to eat a full thousand or two over your maintenance. I just don't like the fact that people throw around these unsubstantiated numbers for what a maximum amount of lbm gain might be, particularly when it's stated in such confident terms. The reality is, the better advice is to discuss increasing the caloric intake in response to slowing gains, as is done, but leaving out the fact that there may be some kind of maximum gain one can make.

[Tom Narvaez]

Yeah, I think we're pretty much on the same page then. I think a trainee is pretty far ahead of everyone else if they start off counting calories, doing SS, and manipulating both intake and volume as necessary to achieve their goals. A lot of people only do one or the other. Lots of bodybuilders fall into the trap of caring more about diet than training and I'd say powerlifters often go the opposite route completely neglecting their diets.

[Carlos Daniel]

Carlos, my starting body fat % is irrelevant in the context of how much weight I added to my lifts. Unless you're trying to argue that going from 135 to 315 adds substantially more LBM than going from 225 to 405.

I'm arguing that someone who weights 140 lbs will have a very, very hard time getting fat.

[Tom Narvaez]

I'm arguing that someone who weights 140 lbs will have a very, very hard time getting fat.

Sure, if you're starting at 8-9% or whatever then getting to 25% takes a lot more work than if you start at 18%. The issue at hand is whether or not gaining weight that fast will contribute anything to your LP in terms of LBM and strength gains. Additionally, is the return cost-effective? I know plenty of bodybuilder types that grow on 3000-4000kcal just fine. I don't see why it would be different for an underweight novice.

5000kcal+ didn't work for very well for me and I'm not talking about ending up fat. I'm talking about the LBM I gained versus total weight gained. I did, however, seemingly gain strength very, very quickly. So, there's that.

[Carlos Daniel]

5000kcal+ didn't work for very well for me and I'm not talking about ending up fat. I'm talking about the LBM I gained versus total weight gained. I did, however, seemingly gain strength very, very quickly. So, there's that.

I was under the impression that getting strong was the whole point of this ordeal. You won't look massive, but I can assure you that you won't get strong without getting bigger under these circumstances.

I think that if he's gonna do SS he needs to eat like that. He can eat less and do another program, sure.