Testosterone Supplementation

[Callador]

In any case, I understand what you're getting at. I just don't care. I feel like you're ignoring my personal goals and concerns to speak generally.

I'm not going to waste my time going up 200-300ng/dl. If that had much of a positive benefit on training, more people that cycle for personal reasons (non-competitive), would do these extremely small doses, but they don't. The reason is that these type of doses don't really do anything whatsoever. Of course it is possible, that it would matter more going from 350-700 than it would going from 700-1050, as you've said, but, in that case, if I'm going to "supplement" testosterone, based on my goals which do not really include general health, it makes no sense not to go beyond 600-700 as well. Right now, or maybe ever, I'm not willing to do that.

I would not "address" this potential "problem" clinically unless it was a serious problem in my every day life, but it just isn't. The argument that it is a problem, but I just don't realize it, doesn't matter much to me. There are no objective signs that an issue exists.

I think small doses can help though. I workout with a retired powerlifter that gets TRT from his doctor. I think he takes 200mg of Test Cypionate every week. When he started it, he made some pretty rapid progress and looked noticeably bigger after just a few weeks. He didn't look like a huge BB or anything, but I did notice him beefing up a little.

[Tom Narvaez]

Depending on the person, 200mg of cyp per week can put you over 1000ng/dl. I can see why that would have very noticeable effects.

[yorick]

I might look into this too. I just got tested, and I have a 290. My doctor seemed to think that was normal because the bottom range started at 240.

I might as well chime in too. I'm 34 and have had about 4 or 5 T tests in the past 2 years. I think my total T topped out at about 350 on the highest test, but usually they were around the upper 200's. My free T was also what I would call low-normal, but I can't remember off the top of my head what those results were.

My doc doesn't really think I need T supplementation at this time because I can still get wood, have sex, not losing body hair, and I have good hypertrophy. I do feel like crap all the time though, and I get sick a lot. She said I should wait until I'm closer to 40 before considering getting on the stuff.

I've been wanting to go in for another test after laying off my weekly alcohol intake night to see if that makes a difference, but I usually don't abstain more than a couple of weeks.

I probably just need to go to an Endo. I've suspected I might have pituitary issues causing problems in my endocrine system, but the tests I have requested related to the pituitary were normal, although I don't know enough to interpret any subtleties about the results.

I've been knocked unconscious at least once, and have had a few concussions, so that's where I think pituitary malfunction might stem from. So far the only pituitary related test that always comes back bad is my TSH, which my doctor seems to insist is a thyroid malfunction even though TSH comes from the pituitary. The enigmatic thing is that my T3 and T4 are normal. I think even the free T3 and T4 are normal when the doc remembers to add those tests like I request.

[Carlos Daniel]

I might as well chime in too. I'm 34 and have had about 4 or 5 T tests in the past 2 years. I think my total T topped out at about 350 on the highest test, but usually they were around the upper 200's. My free T was also what I would call low-normal, but I can't remember off the top of my head what those results were.

My doc doesn't really think I need T supplementation at this time because I can still get wood, have sex, not losing body hair, and I have good hypertrophy. I do feel like crap all the time though, and I get sick a lot. She said I should wait until I'm closer to 40 before considering getting on the stuff.

I've been wanting to go in for another test after laying off my weekly alcohol intake night to see if that makes a difference, but I usually don't abstain more than a couple of weeks.

I probably just need to go to an Endo. I've suspected I might have pituitary issues causing problems in my endocrine system, but the tests I have requested related to the pituitary were normal, although I don't know enough to interpret any subtleties about the results.

I've been knocked unconscious at least once, and have had a few concussions, so that's where I think pituitary malfunction might stem from. So far the only pituitary related test that always comes back bad is my TSH, which my doctor seems to insist is a thyroid malfunction even though TSH comes from the pituitary. The enigmatic thing is that my T3 and T4 are normal. I think even the free T3 and T4 are normal when the doc remembers to add those tests like I request.

What you need to look at is FSH and LH, mainly LH.

[niclane]

Regarding testosterone and prostate cancer: Testosterone supplementation can contribute to BPH, and if one has prostate cancer it will raise the blood level of PSA. This can be confused with an exacerbation of prostate cancer due to the tendency in medicine to confuse lab numbers with diseases, a tendency which also appears in this thread.

Thanks, that's helpful.

For what it's worth, I'm told Louie Simmons recommends getting on a low dose of something mild, 400 mg/week of test or whatever, and staying on as long as possible. Dunno what that translates to in terms of test levels, but it's not all a gram a week with some orals thrown in for good measure.

400 mg/week is still a enough of a cycle that I think you'd expect to see some serious results (unless you're already in Louis Simmons' league). It's quite a bit higher than what a doc would prescribe for TRT. But you're right, in terms of non-therapeutic T supplementation it's not all a gram a week; there's a range.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

I'll try to, bowdirk. It sounds as if you are a perfect candidate for TRT.

I also brought up the prostate cancer aspect. My family has a history of prostate cancer and is something I'm very concerned about and so is my Doc. I get checked very regularly for it and just went through a complete colonoscopy a few weeks ago and was found to be slicker'n a whistle. But my Dad and younger brother have both had many precancerous polyps removed. So you can imagine my concern. But it set my mind at ease by my Doc saying that there is no TRT and prostate cancer increase that he is aware of.

If anyone else has any thoughts on that I would love to hear them. I just wanna be chasin' the old woman around the house and actually plan on doing something should I actually catch her!

Oldster, according to Llevellyn: "Studies show there is no association between the testosterone level and likelihood of developing prostate cancer. On the same note, the administration of exogenous testosterone during androgen replacement therapy seems to have no effect for developing this disease." I suggest you buy his book Anabolics, which has all the necessary information, and the studies that support the statements. I suggest the book, to anybody remotely interested in more information on anabolics.

[yorick]

What you need to look at is FSH and LH, mainly LH.

Yeah, my FSH and LH came back normal. I'm not sure if I had multiple tests on both of those or not. But both have been tested with a "normal" result at least once.

Thanks for your input and help.

[ARD]

Anybody got experience with longer-term use of clomid to increase T ?

[Oldster]

Oldster, according to Llevellyn: "Studies show there is no association between the testosterone level and likelihood of developing prostate cancer. On the same note, the administration of exogenous testosterone during androgen replacement therapy seems to have no effect for developing this disease." I suggest you buy his book Anabolics, which has all the necessary information, and the studies that support the statements. I suggest the book, to anybody remotely interested in more information on anabolics.

Thank you!

[Calvo]

400 mg/week is still a enough of a cycle that I think you'd expect to see some serious results (unless you're already in Louis Simmons' league). It's quite a bit higher than what a doc would prescribe for TRT. But you're right, in terms of non-therapeutic T supplementation it's not all a gram a week; there's a range.

Huh, OK. I thought TRT docs would be more willing to bump you up to the top of the normal range, but yeah, exactly, there's a range even with performance-enhancing doses.