They Don't Award Form Points in Olympic Weightlifting

[stef]

by Bill Starr

“We used trial and error to determine the best way to clean, press, snatch, and jerk. Then we did everything in our power to get stronger because we all learned early-on that, regardless of how rough our form was on a lift, it always improved as our overall strength improved. ”

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[Immortal_k]

Fantastic stories, thank you!

Posted on facebook and twitter.

[Mdemarco]

Great article. Makes me want to learn these lifts bad

[HillKingBill]

Hey Mark! first time here writing.. been reading long time tho.. anyhow... question is... Do you think the american women 75+ Holley Mangold (105 / 135) lifter needs more strength or technique (she didnt have that poor technique after all)? Since if you compare her to 53kg lifter CHINSHANLO Zulfiya (95 / 131) they almost totaled same in London olympics even they have 100kg difference in bodyweight. Im quite sure Holley would be stronger in strict pushing movements etc... quite sure she squats way more too... And overal do you think old time 50's n 60's oly lifting is compared to nowdays? Even tho they are nowdays massivly strong but im pretty sure that records has been getting up mostly becouse of technique not strength factor. Would like to hear your take has streght gotten so much further nowdays from 60's or has the technique changed more than strength levels? Cheers already

[JCavin]

Great article.

I bet Kazakhstan does their squats and deadlifts...

[coachd50]

I guess my question would be...what is Coach Starr's frame of reference for the comments? In 1968 Sr. Nationals Bill Starr went 295lbs/395lbs ( 133/179 kg) in snatch/C&J at the Middle Heavyweight. Tommy Suggs went 290/390lbs (131.5/177kg) at the 242 class.

I don't think those totals would have placed them above 3rd in the 85kg division at nationals this year. Also, those totals would not have beat Chat Vaughn in the 77kg. In the 94kg class, I think they would have placed 8th in the snatches and 5th in clean and jerk. And as mentioned Suggs was outsnatched by 30kg and out jerked by 28kg by an injured Shankle.

I am sure some will say "yeah, but they were worn out from the Press
but I guess I am just confused. It would be one thing if the current lifters were no longer hitting marks that previous lifters did. If current lifters were being out performed in an absolute sense by the US lifters in the 50's, 60's and 70's then I could see a "you should be doing what we did" argument. But it doesn't seem that they are. They are being out performed in a RELATIVE sense, as compared to the competition. For this reason, I don't understand what the purpose is here. I mean, internationally...these "super strong" guys, snatched 2 or 3 kilos more than a 165lb woman just did. They snatched and clean and jerked about 50kg less than Ilya just did. So if they "cared about strength" and the current group doesn't...and they aren't outperforming what the current guys are doing.... I just don't see what they are trying to get at.

[B4PJS]

Lu Xiaojun demonstrated the strength argument perfectly with his squat jerk. 204kg overhead in an A2G squat. He just muscled it up.

[Immortal_k]

I guess my question would be...what is Coach Starr's frame of reference for the comments? In 1968 Sr. Nationals Bill Starr went 295lbs/395lbs ( 133/179 kg) in snatch/C&J at the Middle Heavyweight. Tommy Suggs went 290/390lbs (131.5/177kg) at the 242 class.

I don't think those totals would have placed them above 3rd in the 85kg division at nationals this year. Also, those totals would not have beat Chat Vaughn in the 77kg. In the 94kg class, I think they would have placed 8th in the snatches and 5th in clean and jerk. And as mentioned Suggs was outsnatched by 30kg and out jerked by 28kg by an injured Shankle.

I am sure some will say "yeah, but they were worn out from the Press
but I guess I am just confused. It would be one thing if the current lifters were no longer hitting marks that previous lifters did. If current lifters were being out performed in an absolute sense by the US lifters in the 50's, 60's and 70's then I could see a "you should be doing what we did" argument. But it doesn't seem that they are. They are being out performed in a RELATIVE sense, as compared to the competition. For this reason, I don't understand what the purpose is here. I mean, internationally...these "super strong" guys, snatched 2 or 3 kilos more than a 165lb woman just did. They snatched and clean and jerked about 50kg less than Ilya just did. So if they "cared about strength" and the current group doesn't...and they aren't outperforming what the current guys are doing.... I just don't see what they are trying to get at.

Starr and Suggs are highly regarded coaches. They've both learned, taught, and forgot more than you (and I) have and ever will accumulate in terms of lifting. Starr's message in the article is pretty clear, if you couldn't grasp it then read the article again.

[RickL]

Starr and Suggs are highly regarded coaches. They've both learned, taught, and forgot more than you (and I) have and ever will accumulate in terms of lifting. Starr's message in the article is pretty clear, if you couldn't grasp it then read the article again.

I think he grasped the message just fine. I think he just wonders why Starr is telling people to train more like him, when the current top guys lift more than him, and when his best lifts would not be competitive today.

[coachd50]

Starr and Suggs are highly regarded coaches. They've both learned, taught, and forgot more than you (and I) have and ever will accumulate in terms of lifting. Starr's message in the article is pretty clear, if you couldn't grasp it then read the article again.

I grasped it quite well the first time, but just to be clear, I went and re-read so I could add some quotes and then comments

Coach Starr states

Somewhere along the road, the emphasis in the sport has shifted from strength to technique, and that is the primary reason why America is no longer producing any competitors on the international stage.

I was just curious as to how often Coach Starr is visiting Coach Totten or any of the other coaches from East Coast Gold? When was the last time he visited with Gayle Hatch at Hatch Weightlifting, or visited Hassel Free, or Dave Spitz of California Strength or Dr. Pierce at LSU Shreveport, or Catalyst Athletics and Greg Everett. Or Glen at. MDUSA? Or even the much aligned Broz. Because these are the places that are producing the lifters here. (Although interestingly enough in other internet writings, olympic coaches have complained that when their lifters go to the OTC, they come back with great squat and pull gains, and not enough gains in the competition lifts). It is one thing to say "the US is not successful at Olympic Weightlifting". That is black and white, and it can not be disputed. But unless he is visiting those places, and seeing what Kendrick Farris, and Donny Shankle and Phil Sabatini, and Chad Vaughn and Jared Fleming and Ian Wilson, and Cameron Swart and Matt Bruce and the Barnes brothers are doing...I don't see how he can just proclaim "they aren't working on strength".

Second, Coach Starr states

This is what brought success to those who took part in Olympic lifting in the fifties, sixties, and seventies. More strength was their primary motivation, not technique. Their form only had to be good enough to allow them to get the lifts passed.

I am not trying to get into a Johnson measuring match here. But as I stated above, I don't see how this comment really fits in, since we are discussing "relative" success versus "absolute" performance. Coach Starr totaled 312 kg in 1968 at probably 90KG. That total would have placed him 2nd in 77kg, 4th in the 85kg, and 7th in the 94kg at the US NATIONALS, behind a bunch of lifters who supposedly don't work on strength and therefore suck on the international level. The National Champ in that class in 1968 would have placed the same as Coach Starr. Tommy Suggs, and the Joseph Murry (the national champ in the 2nd highest weight class in 1968) totaled LESS than that. They would have finished around 6th in the 105kg class, as well as the same places in the other classes.

So, the guys today...who are not performing well in international competitions, are lifting more than these men did. I am not trying to create an internet pissin match, but to me, that doesn't reconcile. How can you say "the guys these days don't train right. They should train like we did" when they are totaling more than you did?