Food consumption and it's effect on the recovery curve

[jheald1]

Mark,

SS is full of graphs that discuss a trainees ability to recover based on their stage of training. You also continually discuss (to your documented annoyance) the importance of eating enough for recovery, particularly for the novice lifters. Importantly, the classification of a lifter is determined by their ability to recover after a training session.

Since sufficient food consumption is critically important to the efficient recovery of "novice" lifters, would insufficient food consumption result in a delayed recovery curve that more closely resembles that of an "intermediate" lifter?

To apply my question: if someone refuses to eat enough (or can't afford to), would switching to an "intermediate" program be more beneficial than stalling repeatedly on the novice SS program?

Thanks!

[Mark Rippetoe]

No, since an intermediate program produces more adaptive stress than a novice program. TM, for instance, Monday uses 5 x 5 across, a much harder day to recover from than a novice day. Insufficient food consumption produces an insufficient recovery, and a harder program will not help.

[PressesPeople]

I actually had wondered this exact same question for the longest time now. But Mark, what if the novice program was reduced to 2x a week, like in older trainees? Would this work for someone who ate less?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Perhaps if you just want to eat the minimum amount necessary to preserve your razor abs, training once a month would work.

[Conway]

Something like 5/3/1 might be appropriate, much slower progression, but easier to maintain.

[devnull]

I am immensely grateful that Mr. Rippetoe consistently refuses to dole out nutrition advice beyond the basics. If you want to grow strong, eat enough. If you don't eat enough, it will not happen as fast as it could, if at all. If you are getting fat (waist to hip ratio is moving in the wrong direction), you need to cut back.

Beyond that, pick the most basic book on nutrition you can find to build a foundation. I would recommend 'Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy: The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating'. For muscle gain, find a book on the subject. I would recommend 'Nutrient Timing: The Future of Sports Nutrition '.

Somehow I don't see people pestering the authors of the nutritional books for strength training advice, yet to some it is ok to keep on pestering a strength training author for nutritional advice.

[jheald1]

No, since an intermediate program produces more adaptive stress than a novice program.

Sure, but isn't that why there are recovery days? Isn't the purpose of an intermediate program to provide additional recovery time for an adaptive stress that would be too much to recover from in a 24-48 period? The recovery day is to provide extra recovery time after the volume day stress, so that super-compensation can occur by intensity day (for TM).

TM, for instance, Monday uses 5 x 5 across, a much harder day to recover from than a novice day. Insufficient food consumption produces an insufficient recovery, and a harder program will not help.

5x5 would be harder to recover from, but what if you reduced the volume to 3x5? I understand that insufficient food will result in insufficient recovery, but that is assuming that you want recovery to occur within 24-48 hours for a "novice". I'm asking if allowing more time for recovery to occur by using a weekly progression would work for individuals eating/sleeping less than optimal for a daily progression.

"Harder program" is relative to the weight used, not just the number of total reps. I can do 5x5 with the bar and have no problem recovering, but I'll certainly have problems recovering from 5x5 with my 5rep PR.

I'm certainly not trying to win any argument (that idea is laughable), I just feel like you aren't answering my question.

Thanks for the thought-provocing conversation.

[jheald1]

Perhaps if you just want to eat the minimum amount necessary to preserve your razor abs, training once a month would work.

Just because someone isn't enough "enough" doesn't mean they don't want to. Some people have a budget and other financial considerations that supersede recreational strength training...

[Mark Rippetoe]

Sure, but isn't that why there are recovery days? Isn't the purpose of an intermediate program to provide additional recovery time for an adaptive stress that would be too much to recover from in a 24-48 period? The recovery day is to provide extra recovery time after the volume day stress, so that super-compensation can occur by intensity day (for TM).

Ah. The time-instead-of-food approach. fascinating.

5x5 would be harder to recover from, but what if you reduced the volume to 3x5? I understand that insufficient food will result in insufficient recovery, but that is assuming that you want recovery to occur within 24-48 hours for a "novice". I'm asking if allowing more time for recovery to occur by using a weekly progression would work for individuals eating/sleeping less than optimal for a daily progression.

"Harder program" is relative to the weight used, not just the number of total reps. I can do 5x5 with the bar and have no problem recovering, but I'll certainly have problems recovering from 5x5 with my 5rep PR.

I'm certainly not trying to win any argument (that idea is laughable), I just feel like you aren't answering my question.

I think I have answered this question dozens of times. The program and its stipulated nutritional requirements are optimal, anything less -- in terms of either diet or nutrition -- is suboptimal. Anything can obviously be done suboptimally, and sometimes it has to be done that way. But it is still suboptimal.

[PressesPeople]

Perhaps if you just want to eat the minimum amount necessary to preserve your razor abs, training once a month would work.

Thank you for taking note of my razor abs. However, I was thinking more in the context of a weight-limited sport.