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Thread: Carb Back Loading

  1. #1
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    Default Carb Back Loading

    Is there a reason it's not very frequently discussed on here?

    I'm guessing it's because the people who want to gain lean mass are struggling to hit their daily macros without having the added inconvenience of only being able to eat carbs at a certain time.

    My training split currently looks like this:

    Monday at 17:45 - Workout A
    Tuesday at 20:00 - Tag Rugby (30 minutes of quite intense sprinting)
    Wednesday at 17:45 - Workout B
    Thursday at 20:00 - Tag Rugby (30 minutes of quite intense sprinting)
    Friday at 17:15 - Workout A
    Saturday - Rest
    Sunday - Rest

    Then repeat, switching A and B.

    I backload every day and follow the Carb Backloading diet (density bulking) to the letter.

    Have always been up and down in weight due to a lack of strict monitoring of calories/macros - and also my habit of jumping on a plane to mainland Europe and spending a long weekend without really eating a lot...

    Hoping that the structure of Carb Backloading, along with Starting Strength helps me to put on some good lean muscle.

    Another little question I have is if the likelihood of newbie gains (ie... Linear Progression for quite a while) is hindered by me having trained on-and-off for a few years?

    I'm not particularly strong - 5 rep max: bench = 65KG / squat = 75kg / Press = 42.5kg I can roll out an excuse ... I have very long arms which seems to mess with my bench press. The heaviest I have ever done is 80kg for 1 or 2 reps.

    Bit of a mixed bag of a post... Sorry about that!

  2. #2
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    Default

    The reason why CBL isn't discussed on here very often is because I've already talked about it pretty in depth in one of the first posts on this subforum and it was sufficient enough, I suppose.

    CBL woks fine if it allows you to otherwise be compliant when you normally wouldn't, you workout at night, AND the macros/cals are correct. If you work out at other times, which you don't, CBL is not optimal. If your cals and macros are off, I.e too high or too low, then it doesn't matter how you "backload" or "density bulking" because it won't work well. Put simply, there are no advantages to doing CBL unless it makes you more compliant, period.

    SS would normally be truncated if you'd been training before, but you're not very trained unless you're <150 lbs or a female. I think SS will be a good thing provided you get adequate nutrition.

  3. #3
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    I'm 170/171 pounds with long arms/long legs and a very low bodyfat percentage (although annoyingly I have never really had lower abs!)

    Just sought out your response, and it's certainly interesting to read your opinion in contrast to Kiefer's perspective that Density Bulking is a very efficient way of putting on lean muscle mass.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleToyTom View Post
    I'm 170/171 pounds with long arms/long legs and a very low bodyfat percentage (although annoyingly I have never really had lower abs!)

    Just sought out your response, and it's certainly interesting to read your opinion in contrast to Kiefer's perspective that Density Bulking is a very efficient way of putting on lean muscle mass.
    If the calories and macros are right, yes it's effective provided you train at night. On the ther hand, its no more effective than having 4-5 meals per day with without back loading them provided you have increased carbs ore and post workout. If you're not taking in carbs pre workout, you're leaving performance and gains on the table.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the reply

    Say I was to modify it to take account of your previous point....

    I could add 20g of maltodextrin to my preworkout shake (30g Whey Isolate and 5g Creatine) that I take 1 hour before training. I train from approximately 18:00 to 19:00

    Do you think that addresses your point that I'm leaving performance and gains on the table?

    Apologies for all the questions.... Really appreciate your time.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Interesting conversation. I follow the CBL approach; it does help me to be very compliant. I am not very strict with my macros but I'm definitely within +/- 30-40 grams of the targets every time. For me that's not breaking the bank.

    There are two training times that are utilized with backloading: in the morning (basically fasted minus some caffeine and fats), or at night (w/o pre-workout carbs).

    I agree with Jordan that training at night with zero carbs throughout the day will SUCK.

    BUT, the morning option actually works very well (at least for me). I've been doing it for several months now, and I'm definitely not losing out on gains or performance.

    With that said, I'm a sample size of 1 and maybe this is not optimal but it has been pretty dang good since October of last year.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    there are no advantages to doing CBL unless it makes you more compliant, period
    I'm the resident CBL fanboy here but I hope you can come up with a better statement than this because I learn a lot from reading your stuff.

    Could you then explain why I got leaner doing CBL from a typical chicken breast+oats only diet? (Honest non-shit-stirring question) The change in macros that I did was double fat, protein and carbs were the same but obviously consumed in different periods. And yes, I was strict before. I even lick my plate for fear of missing calories LOL.

    Macros were 145pro, 250c, 40-50 fat. Protein and fats from plants not counted. Could you confidently say that if I went 145p/250c/120f (just tripled my fat) without doing all the circadian rhythm hullabaloo that CBL states, would I have gotten leaner?

  8. #8

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    A lot of the studies Keiffer uses to validate CBL were done on diabetics. Since I am diabetic, I load most of my carbs around workout, but I cant smash cherry pies like he says. LOL> A couple of pieces of pizza beforehand = a good workout for me though.

    I arrived at CBL through trial and error with my glucometer. I didnt even know it existed until I looked into it. I was finding that I could tolerate a lot more carbs in my workout window, but on the off days I have to be careful.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleToyTom View Post
    I could add 20g of maltodextrin to my preworkout shake (30g Whey Isolate and 5g Creatine) that I take 1 hour before training. I train from approximately 18:00 to 19:00

    Do you think that addresses your point that I'm leaving performance and gains on the table?
    Depends on how many carbs you're taking in during the day, but likely you'd benefit from taking in 30% of total carbs pre and post workout with them being a mix of fast and moderate digesting carbs. I'd probably cut the maltodextrin with oats or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post

    BUT, the morning option actually works very well (at least for me). I've been doing it for several months now, and I'm definitely not losing out on gains or performance.

    With that said, I'm a sample size of 1 and maybe this is not optimal but it has been pretty dang good since October of last year.
    Yes, the morning option can work well but it must be understood that this is proprietary to CBL or even new information. Muscular glycogen does not contribute to maintaining blood sugar during an overnight fast, so once it's in there it's good to go. Straight up CBL wouldn't be a good option though, however, as you'd be missing out on some results without putting carbs in immediately post workout. A good option I've had people use who workout in the AM is to take in a bunch of carbs post workout (~30%), and then bolus them some more in the last two meals of the day. Optimally this would be preceded by a nice pump session or conditioning but it can be done without.

    Quote Originally Posted by simonsky View Post
    I'm the resident CBL fanboy here but I hope you can come up with a better statement than this because I learn a lot from reading your stuff.
    Which specific argument would you like me to deconstruct?

    Could you then explain why I got leaner doing CBL from a typical chicken breast+oats only diet? (Honest non-shit-stirring question) The change in macros that I did was double fat, protein and carbs were the same but obviously consumed in different periods. And yes, I was strict before. I even lick my plate for fear of missing calories LOL.
    How did your training change, how did your fiber intake change, how did nutrient timing change with respect to training timing?'

    Macros were 145pro, 250c, 40-50 fat. Protein and fats from plants not counted. Could you confidently say that if I went 145p/250c/120f (just tripled my fat) without doing all the circadian rhythm hullabaloo that CBL states, would I have gotten leaner?
    If most of your carbs were focused around the workout, i.e. bolused (which is what the research points to), then yes 100%. Likely multiple things changed like total calories, macros since total protein and fat grams were not known. How much leaner did you get also? How old are you? Are you still maturing hormonally (yes)? You see that this question cannot be answered with 100% accuracy? On the other hand, what you should be asking is "Is this optimal for strength, performance, and aesthetics?" The answer may be yes or no depending on when you'd otherwise workout and your compliance.

  10. #10
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    Default

    I have a sort of similar post workout nutrition question I've been pondering about. I've seen a few sources that recommend not adding carbs in post workout in order to preserve insulin sensitivity(specifically to allow amino acids to be transported to cells) gained from heavy lifting. One recommended adding the carbs in late at night, the other was strictly ketogenic and therefore didn't allow for any carbs. I'm not quite sure if they meant insulin sensitivity or non-insulin mediated nutrient sensitivity(e.g., Glut4).

    Is there any research to back this claim that we shouldn't pulse carbs post workout so as to keep insulin sensitivity high?


    Also, one thing I've been wondering about CBL is how strong the research actually is that insulin rises earlier in the morning effect fat burning later in the day? This seems to be one of the more controversial claims Kiefer makes.

    Thanks, Jordan.

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