Deadlift form check 423x4 + programming change?

[mrflibble]

Following on from my previous form check here http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=48131


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7z9f1wM14k

Obviously form is breaking down. Reps 1-3 don't seem to horrible, I'd like to think rounding is all thoracic, and lumbar remains unchanged during the lift - but I'm not entirely sure that isn't just wishful thinking. Either way, I'm still not keeping back as extended as I'd like. 4th rep was a struggle. Couldn't lock out 5th, whole back rounded from the start, bar drifted forward.

I guess my concern here is do I need to reset? Or is form ok enough to try the same weight again? Obviously I can't keep adding weight, missing reps and progressively breaking down form, but I don't want to reset unnecessarily either.

I've been dropping bodyfat & lifting 3 times a week, deadlifting every second workout, adding ~2.5kgs. No squatting.

So I'm not quite sure how to move forward.

I'm currently planning to add a belt and see how that helps. I'm also considering changing one deadlift day to 5x5 ... and maaaybe pulling twice a week instead of alternating. So 2 weeks would see me pulling 5x5 twice and 1x5 twice instead of 1x5 three times. Basically TM for deads.

I'd like to start with maybe 330odd for 5x5 (no idea really for 5x5 deads, but it seems conservative enough) and have a crack at 423 again with a belt and a little more recovery.

I know the only way to know is try and find out, but does it seem like a decent plan?

[Tom Campitelli]

Failing once does not warrant a reset. Your back is rounding, but you are correct that it is mostly thoracic. It doesn't look great and I'd like to see you keep it tighter. Why no squatting?

[mrflibble]

Yeah I was more concerned that my form breakdown on all reps might warrant a reset (or at least a change in programming) not just the miss on rep 5.

As to no squatting. I almost didn't bring this up again, but figured it was pertinent in regards to my programming. MRI April 2010. Herniated C6-7. Couldn't squat at all for almost a year. Deadlifts were and are now mostly fine. Back squats irritate my left upper back/neck. Even light weights can trigger torticollis and paraesthesia and interfere with life and lifts over the next few days.

Based on this http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=48169 thread I may give safety bar squats a try in the future, but not in any great rush.

Gave low bar a test a few weeks back with just 80kg. I didn't take this planning on a form check but I guess it might be worth a look. I'm starting to suspect I've carried my tendency to round the thoracic into my squats too. Not the greatest angle, but I think I can see even a hint of it on this light set.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkJRpUHmAOI

[Tom Campitelli]

I remember this now. You have a touch of upper back rounding on the squat, too.

Here's the thing, the squat is a good assistance exercise for the deads. You cannot really squat conventionally, so that is out. You may need some program changes, or you may not. You haven't yet tried a belt. Also, what are your height and weight? Lastly, why do they lock you in a cage to exercise?

If a program change is warranted, I wouldn't move to 5x5 on the deads, however. If you want to increase your volume, try a smaller step, like 2x5. Or, include something like halting deads or rack pulls or RDLs.

[mrflibble]

I'm 5' 11" and hovering around 90kg.

I'm loving all the cage comments. Reality is not too exciting unfortunately, I just have to film into my garage from the next one across to get a semi decent angle.

So since posting, I went ahead a gave 5x5 a shot last Tuesday - 150kg ~5 min rest between sets. Added belt last few sets. DoH all but last couple of reps of last set.

Generally felt ok, but even some reps I felt back not as extended as it should be - which hints to me it's a form issue not a strength one (either that or both!)

On Saturday I redid 423 with a belt and got all 5. Effortwise felt more comfortable than before but I'd put that down to being more rested and better recovered. Formwise it's not looking that different to me. Maybe a little less thoracic rounding, but back still unlocks the instant the bar breaks the floor. I'm not even sure the belt isn't distracting me and losing lumbar a bit more.

Having had a closer look, I feel like I'm not getting step 4 of the set up right at all: Instead of squeezing the chest UP to create the wave of extension, I'm shrugging my shoulders towards my ears, then pulling them back down, resulting in a kind of compressed trunk, and insufficient extension.

Perhaps this is a result of setting up too close to the bar, leaving my shoulders too far forward? (and hips a little too high)?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC30ymcMq0k


As a comparison, here's an old form check I posted a while back of 200kgx5 when I was ~20kg fatter. While not perfect (and a different angle) I feel my form was much better then. Back more extended - and hips do look lower too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Vw9ugTTzw

[Tom Campitelli]

Yeah, your older set looked better. Amazing what more muscle (and fat) do for lifting. You are correct in that you are currently setting up a little too close to the bar. It needs to be one inch from your shins so that your shoulders are not so far in front. Your back rounds because your errectors are not doing their job and holding the spine in extension. This is a strength issue.

I think if you can get away with less volume on the deads, that is a good idea. 5x5s can work, but I would leave that for later in your training career, if possible. Haltings for a set or two of eight keeping your back rigid would more directly address your rounding off the floor and give you plenty of practice on correct setup. With that said, lots of things work.

[mrflibble]

So I tried learning from my old set. Managed 430x4. Bailed on the 5th rep. Not too happy with myself for that. I think a big part of that was mental, especially after almost bailing on the 4th for a split second (pushing the bar away with my shins certainly didn't help) but then getting it with a relatively comfortable grind. Still feel I could have pushed 5th harder.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qBbDUVkb2I

I realised that I've been starting too close to the bar by checking the distance incorrectly - I'd pull my pants back to get a look at shin to bar distance and without realising it, would pull my shins back too: subconsciously making more room to better see the distance without realising that I was changing it too.

So, I paid closer attention to centre of the foot and think my distance is better. This puts shoulders in a better position so that back extension UP now has a chance to lift scaps in line with the bar without having to pull them back too.

Of course, still needs work. But a step in the right direction at least?

[Tom Campitelli]

You've got a little more rounding in your upper back than I would like, but you hold your low back in extension. Good job. Your setup looks good and I suspect this is why your low back is now tighter. Carry on.