I like underwater cleans because they are low-impact and super sport specific to swimming.
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stuffedsuperdud likes to be a smartass in olympic lifting conversations. But, he also thinks doing underwater cleans was a serious contributing factor to Vasily Alexeyev's dominance of 1970s weightlifting: http://startingstrength.com/resource...477#post898477Originally Posted by stuffedsuperdud
Yes, I know what happened was an aberration, and yes, I believe it when Klokov argues "Well if your technique was fine at low weight but fell apart at heavy weight, doesn't that just mean you weren't strong enough?" but just to be a smartass, I'll point out that the Russians and the Americans won the exact same # of gold medals in London.
Coincidence? You decide.
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I like underwater cleans because they are low-impact and super sport specific to swimming.
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Yikes!
Didn't know I'm still on your radar, Lord Stark. Yes I make stupid jokes and advocate unnecessarily for the devil because I am bored and frustrated with how every time someone mentions Sn/CJ, the conversation degenerates within a few posts into the usual unhelpful noise; can you blame me for being tired of reading a hundred variants of "USAW doesn't care about strength! Moar deadlifts!"? Jokes aside, before you take any (more) shots at me, check my log; we're on the same team, Wolf. Yes I press and deadlift. No, I'm not a technique whore. Yes, every time someone tries to start at discussion about triple extension vs. catapult vs. jump-n-shrug, I want to shove a barbell up his ass and tell him to just lift some goddamn weights. But even if I generally agree with the party line, you must admit, when some noob here takes a jab at someone like Chad Vaughn without even knowing who he is, much less that he's probably the nicest guy in USAW (and an actual 2x Olympian!), just because that's what he thinks the cool kids here are doing, he deserves some gentle ridicule, right?
And hey, until you conduct a study on underwater cleans, with big randomized populations and proper controls, we'll never quite know for sure how useful or not they are............
Shouldn't be that hard to find out, now that I think about it. The manuscript would probably look something like:
Effects of Hydraulic Resistance on the Development of the Two-Hand Barbell Clean in Untrained Individuals
Wolf, M.*, Superdud, S.*, Rippetoe, M.
*Both authors contributed equally in the preparation of this manuscript.
Abstract
Intro
Methods and Materials
Figure 1a: Schematic of IWF-approved 20kg barbell and plates
Figure 1b: Schematic of standard 4m platform
Figure 1c: Schematic of dunk tank for experimental group
Figure 2a: Lifter start position
Figure 2b: Lifter end position
Figure 3: Table of viscosities of fluids of interest
Results and Discussion
Figure 4: Plot of improvements as a function of fluid, normalized to changes in bodyweight
Conclusion
Acknowledgements
Special thanks to Vasily Alekseyev and Rachel Crass for helpful discussion. This research was funded by a generous grant from The Aasgaard Co.
We should do it! I am pretty experienced at conducting biomedical studies and you're some sort of adjunct kinesiology professor, right? Hey, if nothing else, our collaboration will probably be better than what the exercise science community is putting out.
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He's also on Facebook. Completely soul destroying to watch videos of him pressing overhead weights I can't even deadlift :-(
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Even though it's technically "The North Remembers," you get bonus points for referring to me as Lord Stark.
Look, I agree that it's sometimes annoying to see every conversation about olympic lifting turn into one of the old tropes, and that it's equally aggravating when someone who has been lifting for 3 months, has never coached anyone, is proud of his 240x5 deadlift, and has never cleaned or snatched, jumps on the bandwagon simply because he's following the crowd and conforming to local opinion.
But what you said about # of gold medal's isn't playing useful devil's advocate that helps us better understand both sides of the issue, and sharpen our own opinions (or, if convinced, change our minds - which no one has given a good reason to do, yet). As you admitted, it was just being a smartass. So I was being a smartass back. That's all.
It's just funny, interesting, and sad to see the reactions of certain people within the American WL community with regards to what Klokov has been saying as he does seminar after seminar all over the world. He's emphasized some of the same things Rip has been saying for years. In some cases, it's like a lightbulb has gone off - because when Klokov says it, oh wow, well now it must be true because Klokov said it! Whereas before, us saying the same thing would be cause for ridicule. In other cases, people try to preserve their reverence for him but still maintain their stance - which essentially requires that they say "no, he's wrong" except now they have to do so respectfully and with mental gymnastics, as opposed to just mocking - which is the default mode for the response to the same ideas when they come from Rip or this community. It's entertaining but sad to see.
Last edited by Michael Wolf; 09-23-2014 at 09:06 AM.
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This is a very old conversation.
Reg Park in his 1960 booklet "Strength & Bulk training for Weightlifters and Bodybuilders" says of Doug Hepburn and Paul Anderson, "It is true their lifts were not equal to Olympic lifts specialists, but their superior strength more than compensated for this, as was shown that both men annexed the world heavyweight title on the Olympic lifts."
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I don't really care about what the most entrenched coaches say, since out-of-touch old men are known for saying retarded things like, "Over the top, lad!" and "legitimate rape," but the folks I do know have been pretty eager to incorporate more deadlifts and presses into their programming, so I guess I'm optimistic about the future of our lifting and won't lose any sleep over what the old guard think. Now that you guys aren't the only "just get strong" crew in town, it's only a matter of time before these guys are outcompeted and either change their tune or die out, right?
Did you end up watching the whole interview, BTW? He goes on to describe the situation with USAW and compare it to what he enjoys back home, and in many ways echoes what the coaches here have been saying about how the problems run much deeper than programming, though he's optimistic that we'll get our infrastructure and funding together in the near future since the sport's popularity is at an all-time high.
Also, interestingly, he actually said that snatch is not a very strength-dependent lift, which is why he can still hover around his PBs while on a grueling seminar tour, whereas he cannot CJ at world-class levels under these same conditions. But I'm guessing "not very strength-dependent" is all relative and I should just get my snatch-grip deadlift up to 230kg before I worry about anything else, right?
Unrelated to the hot mess of "Why the USA Sucks at Weightlifting":
Usually I don't care about what some meathead has to say about things outside of lifting, and I was cringing when he debuted his "Winner Sportswear Company" idea for fear of seeing him sink all his funds into a doomed business venture (see: every retired NFL player ever) but now it seems, to my amateur eye, Klokov is pretty much the next Arnold in terms of backing up his lifting with charisma and business acumen. Wolf, if you haven't watched the entire interview it's definitely worth the time, esp. since as far as I can tell you're a small business owner? I definitely learned a thing or three about things outside of lifting.
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The Russians at least WON medals and had more athletes competing than the Americans. Hell, even my home country, Canada won a medal.Yes, I know what happened was an aberration, and yes, I believe it when Klokov argues "Well if your technique was fine at low weight but fell apart at heavy weight, doesn't that just mean you weren't strong enough?" but just to be a smartass, I'll point out that the Russians and the Americans won the exact same # of gold medals in London.
You suck at being a smartass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25nhCAdJvIU
Not just Klokov, but Mark bell, too. Rip says Weightlifters should do Deadlifts, people call him a hack, a clown, doesn't know shit. Mark Bell shows up with his "JackedandTan" bullshit, has them doing fucking sumo deadlifts and box squats and it's alright because its Mark Bell and he actually knows something. I find it hysterical that he has shit on Rip's squat teachings yet his right hand man Silent Mike uses specific cues and techniques that Rip advocates. Fucking people, these days.
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Has Bell ripped on Rip? I thought I recall a positive review by him during a power project. I dunno. Doesn't matter. He annoys me with his generic advice (just switch things up!). I also had the pleasure of attending a mini-seminar with him and Burrdick (condensed version just for members of this private gym I used to belong to) ... it was OK, but neither were terribly insightful in that setting, and certainly wasn't worth the money. I'm convinced 99.9% of seminars, which are all the rage these days, are a complete waste of money.
On a separate note, I was listening to a Barbell Shrugged episode on my drive home today, with Diane Fu. She gets to discussing hanging out with Klokov at one of his seminars. She talks about the Russians' preference for a straight bar path here. Where have we heard that before?
And they talk about the Russians' desire to not over-analyze the movements and focus on strength here. Of course one of the doofuses makes the point that he's been lifting since he was 8, so his technique is drilled in, so it's more important for newbs to focus on technique. When in fact strength is necessary to overcome technique deficiencies, and ultimately to be decent at this sport you need a lot of both.
Maybe the lifts just aren't that hard. I mean they are hard, but this isn't ballet or figure skating. And the training is certainly hard, hard work. I wholly agree with top level lifters that you need to routinely practice the lifts, and practice at heavy weights, just like I agree with Mike Tuchscherer about PLers training the comp lifts frequently. But ultimately, once your form is "good", you just need to get bull strong, while still routinely practicing the lifts.
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Yeah, he did the whole "who has he coached" and "only squatted 611 in an old time suit" blah blah blah the usual jargon. I love how all of these "coaches" are springing up now and being interviewed on podcasts and being treated as if they are experts. Barbell Shrugged had a podcast with that sack of shit Travis Mash and it was titled, I'm not bullshitting you: How to Become a World Champion Weightlifter. Because he certainly was. Rip, I can't blame you for not wanting to be involved with USAW anymore.
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