LtCol Mac Ward: Barbell Training and the Military

[Matt275]

Show me your data.

To be fair he mentioned their weight room which he just saw recently. That would imply some sort of strength training going on. Maybe not your ideal, but a step in the right direction. I personally guarded that weight room at times as a young private almost 20 yrs ago. That unit and the 2 other battalions have been filled with hard, tough men who don't know how to quit regardless of whether anyone deems them physically strong or not. I'm on ur side with the strength training thing. When you ask for data though, I'd reply with Point Du Hoc, Burma, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, just as a few points of data. Your way might indeed be better (I agree) but to disparage that particuar unit is silly. It has a proud and storied history.

[Joe Murphy]

To be fair he mentioned their weight room which he just saw recently. That would imply some sort of strength training going on. Maybe not your ideal, but a step in the right direction. I personally guarded that weight room at times as a young private almost 20 yrs ago. That unit and the 2 other battalions have been filled with hard, tough men who don't know how to quit regardless of whether anyone deems them physically strong or not. I'm on ur side with the strength training thing. When you ask for data though, I'd reply with Point Du Hoc, Burma, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, just as a few points of data. Your way might indeed be better (I agree) but to disparage that particuar unit is silly. It has a proud and storied history.

Not to mention the first Rangers KIA in Afghanistan happened on October 19, 2001. And Rangers been there continuously EVER since with an Op tempo that's beyond comprehension. Thanks, Matt. I'm just catching up to this and I've gotta hit the rack--early morning tomorrow. I'll try to form a cogent response; Mac clearly feels passionately about this---and I don't blame him.

[Mac Ward]

but to disparage that particuar unit is silly. It has a proud and storied history.

I never nor did I did I ever intend to disparage a unit. The Marine Corps has its own very colorful history of accomplishments of success without training with barbells. We used to fight with swords too.

We are talking about training, today, getting better at training, today.

Just because a unit was successful in the past (in spite of their preparation) doesn't mean we have to do exactly what they did. There is documented medical research that shows strength training improves endurance, there are safety reasons, efficiency reasons.

I'm not talking about the past, I'm not fighting Iwo Jima, Korea, Vietnam, Beruit, SWA, OIF, or OEF. I'm talking about the next unit to deploy 6 months from now. If I'm wrong, show me the experiment, the data, the physiological reason I am. I want to win.

You don't need to because it's Monday morning and that unit is out on a 3 mile run, two of the Marines in the chase vehicle with shin splints or a rolled ankle, none of them having trained through novice progression.

I give up.

I've shown and can provide other evidence why barbell training is better. I have yet to get one example as to how the other way is better. DoD makes us run the PFT, not the rigors of combat.

[Gregory Domnin]

Sounds like the VOICE OF AUTHORITY.

No one said long haul endurance has no place in the military.

I've tried it your way, I've tried it our way. I've shown you how it works when done our way.

It would seem that there is a disconnect. I feel as though folks think that barbell training has some sort of special power that transforms aerobic capacity into useless strength, rendering its wayward participants lacking enough aerobic capacity to cross the street.

Aerobic training interferes with strength training and NOT the other way around. Aerobic capacity is quickly lost and quickly gained. We can train more intelligently, injury free.

Or we can keep doing what we have always done and plan for the stupid and unnecessary losses to training injuries.

Show me your data. Our folks were better at your precious aerobic test, better at the pull ups and better in the dojo as they trained in MCMAP.

To be fair he mentioned their weight room which he just saw recently. That would imply some sort of strength training going on. Maybe not your ideal, but a step in the right direction. I personally guarded that weight room at times as a young private almost 20 yrs ago. That unit and the 2 other battalions have been filled with hard, tough men who don't know how to quit regardless of whether anyone deems them physically strong or not. I'm on ur side with the strength training thing. When you ask for data though, I'd reply with Point Du Hoc, Burma, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, just as a few points of data. Your way might indeed be better (I agree) but to disparage that particuar unit is silly. It has a proud and storied history.

Maybe because the current method is more of a screening process and not a training process?

Factors associated with discharge during marine corps basic training.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17937356

"no history of competitive exercise, and an incoming lower extremity injury with incomplete recovery were independent risk factors for discharge."


And those who played sports previously and got strong are more likely to succeed?
Study points SEAL recruiters toward athletes
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/...iously-sports/

[Matt275]

You don't need to because it's Monday morning and that unit is out on a 3 mile run, two of the Marines in the chase vehicle with shin splints or a rolled ankle, none of them having trained through novice progression.

I give up.

I've shown and can provide other evidence why barbell training is better. I have yet to get one example as to how the other way is better. DoD makes us run the PFT, not the rigors of combat.

I'm not going to try to disprove your method because I happen to agree with you. I hope you don't give up. Given your rank you have a much better chance of being heard than I could have ever hoped to. I'm just passionate about that particular unit even if I think they could do some things better.

[Mac Ward]

I'm not going to try to disprove your method because I happen to agree with you. I hope you don't give up. Given your rank you have a much better chance of being heard than I could have ever hoped to. I'm just passionate about that particular unit even if I think they could do some things better.

I don't think you are. I just keep reading reasons (from others) why aerobic training is better in their opinion. I've said it a many times now. There is a an endurance requirement, no shit. Intelligent barbell training for strength inmproves endurance, injury free, while making our service members better at everything else required in combat. I've shown that to be the case on the stupid PFT, it's application to combat is obvious (to most). Training endurance directly through aerobic bullshit exercise is counter to everything we are trying to do with our Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen.

[Matt275]

Maybe because the current method is more of a screening process and not a training process?

Factors associated with discharge during marine corps basic training.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17937356

"no history of competitive exercise, and an incoming lower extremity injury with incomplete recovery were independent risk factors for discharge."


And those who played sports previously and got strong are more likely to succeed?
Study points SEAL recruiters toward athletes
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/...iously-sports/

Very good point. When you're a smaller and elite unit with enough volunteers you can afford a weeding out process before the real training period. Find out who has the intestinal fortitude then train those who do.

[Joe Murphy]

Mac, we're 99% in agreement and there's no reason to belabor this. We have missed aspects of each other's arguments--either out of passion or something else. I haven't tried to intentionally challenge your premise or conclusions. I DO believe there are some units that require a high degree of aerobic training that will not come from powerlifting alone--that is not to suggest you said it would, just that I sometimes get the feeling that people think a guy with a 1200 pound total with no roadwork could strap on 90 pounds of gear and do a sub-48-minute 10K any given morning. I'm probably misreading...