Swim HIIT?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

VO2 when it's been measured in swimmers is very high. If you're inefficient that O2 consumption will not be used for efficient propulsion, but you can still exert yourself quite heavily in the process. Compared with a prowler the resistance is lower, but compared with sprints it is higher. Water is a vastly more resistive medium than air. Hitting max HR is just as easy from swimming as from any other full body type of exertion. As you get more conditioned to it the hr recovery quickens, which is also true for other types of conditioning.

I appreciate your rationale, Paul- but I think you'll agree with my points when presented the following information.
1) VO2 max is modality specific. In fact, if you take a swimmer and test them on a treadmill they will test much lower than you'd predict and MUCH lower than their ground based endurance "control". Not only does vo2 max values of the competitors in a sport fail to indicate the intensity, efficacy, or overall competitive level of the athlete - it's lower in swimmers. There are also zero swimmers with a vo2 max > 80, which puts them out of the top 20 recorded vo2 maxes for either sex. Cyclists and cross country skiers currently hold down the fort there.

You are correct that the resistance is "higher" for swimming, but the force production is lower because the velocity of movement AND having to deal with gravity. Considering during a sprint the relevant ground reactive forces and the contraction velocity and then you'll arrive at sprinting being >>>>>>>> swimming from a force production standpoint.

Finally, classical ex phys studies show swimming and arm ergs to have 10-20 bpm lower on HR than other modalities at any given work output- so no, it's not the same with respect to "exertion", it presents a larger risk- relatively- to competing with strength adaptations, and it's not as effective for the generating the stress-adaptation cycle I personally think we should be seeking if we're going to condition at all.

As I see it swimming's only downside is that the buoyancy isn't as good for developing bone density. On the other hand if you're doing a heavy dryland barbell program then who cares, you already have a great stimulus from elsewhere.

Agreed.

In the end, with swimming I can spend 40 minutes with my HR continually between 120 during rest and 155 during sets, and not rest for more than 20 seconds straight the entire time. I can't sustain hill sprints or plyo or kettlebells for nearly that long. And I don't think it's because it's less of a workout, I think it's because it feels better and is more gratifying. It's motivating - at least to those of us who like it.

Paul....dude. The fact that you cannot sustain plyo/kb's/rower/prowler/car pushes that long is because they require more force production, more cardiac output, etc. and rely more heavily on anaerobic bioenergetic systems. Luckily, training those systems regularly also develops the aerobic pathway at least as good as aerobic training- though admittedly efficiency in movement is compromised without aerobic training.

[Paul1]

Hey Jordan, I think what this boils down to in the end is 1) transfer to other sports is not really relevant, since if that's important to you you'd be training in other sports, 2) you CAN use swimming as an outstanding conditioning activity if you keep intensity high, and 3) people will have the most success at things like body recomp if they are doing an activity that they enjoy. By the same token there is value in accumulating a volume of high intensity work, and doing a sport one likes is more conducive to accumulating volume.

By the way, I'm intrigued by the caloric cost issues with swimming. I've read some modeling work suggesting that the heat transfer just from being in 70 degree water is a very large caloric cost. As long as one can control diet that could be advantageous for fat loss. I think the studies showing relatively higher body fat among elite swimmers has little to do with normal humans, since that may be a buoyancy issue that allows certain body types to be more successful at an elite level.

[JDelage]

What would be the right way to test whether a given protocol is a good HIIT? Would looking at HR be enough or would you need more info?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Hey Jordan, I think what this boils down to in the end is 1) transfer to other sports is not really relevant, since if that's important to you you'd be training in other sports, 2) you CAN use swimming as an outstanding conditioning activity if you keep intensity high, and 3) people will have the most success at things like body recomp if they are doing an activity that they enjoy. By the same token there is value in accumulating a volume of high intensity work, and doing a sport one likes is more conducive to accumulating volume.

I agree that if someone is motivated to swim above all other things then that is much better than another modality. However, the transfer to sport is not something I addressed to discredit swimming as an optimal modality (quite the opposite, in fact), but since it does tend to impede training that is MUCH MORE important to functioning at a high level and, as some might argue, longevity- I would say that given equal motivation and access to a variety of modalities that swimming would be about last on my list for preferred monostructural modalities. Again, the data does not support your contention that swimming has a high intensity compared to other exercise modalities and for this reason alone I could make a strong case against using it for any of the reasons I would have people condition in addition to their resistance training in the first place.

To be brief, the argument I'm making is that all things being equal swimming is one of the worst ways to do HIIT. If you disagree I'd like to know why outside of changing the premise I'm making.

By the way, I'm intrigued by the caloric cost issues with swimming. I've read some modeling work suggesting that the heat transfer just from being in 70 degree water is a very large caloric cost. As long as one can control diet that could be advantageous for fat loss. I think the studies showing relatively higher body fat among elite swimmers has little to do with normal humans, since that may be a buoyancy issue that allows certain body types to be more successful at an elite level.

The caloric cost of swimming events for elite swimmers is much lower than a novice swimmer given the same volume due to efficiency of biological processes - including heat creation and transfer. The data I've seen suggests that brown fat and uncoupling proteins are both upregulated in swimmers but that their BMR's are lower than their ground based sport counterparts who are at similar levels of competitiveness.

I should state that I do like swimming for back rehab work, but outside of that or otherwise motivating a non compliant person- I'd pass.

What would be the right way to test whether a given protocol is a good HIIT? Would looking at HR be enough or would you need more info?

HR, work done, HR recovery time, etc. and then subsequent BMR over 24-48hrs. It's a slippery slope, obviously, but we have very good data IMO on what is and isn't at the food chain to produce the adaptations we want to glean from conditioning. Wingates, sprints, rowers, and prowlers trump just about everything.

[Barry Charles]

From J. of Physiology, V154, 1960, a 90kg man looses about 3kcal/min submerged in 25C water. In 20 minutes that's 60kcal.

If he does HIIT intervals at 500W = 0.12kcal/sec, for 20 sec, that is 2.4kcal/interval. If he does 8 of them, that's about 50 kcal.

If he swims slowly during the rest and recovery, say 20 minutes, that's an additional 50kcal.

His total energy expenditure will be: 60 (dunked in water) + 50 for HIIT + 50 for swimming slowly = 160kcal.

While being in coldish water increases your energy expenditure by 37% (over moderate air temp), there is no other physiological benefit to hanging out in a cold pool, in fact it is unpleasant.

[mrcosmic]

If you're concerned about the influences of swimming on recovery, remember that it's a repetitive overhead activity. The stress on the shoulder girdle can be quite high, especially if your technique is poor. Most swimmers have sore shoulders.

Something like the prowler is less of a problem in that regard.

[stuffedsuperdud]

Why does this thread need to exist? Seems pretty straightforward to me:
When I go swimming, there are at any given time about thirty hot women in full makeup aged 18-40 are sitting around primping, taking selfies, and reading 50 Shades of Grey as if it were the savior of the English language. NB1: This shit is real. I live in LA...it's a fucking vapid nightmare. NB2: It's not like I'm having naked sexytime with these ladies...their choice, not mine, obviously...but that's besides the point, goddammit.

When I go do hills, I am surrounded by a bunch of self-important kids, i.e. local high school football teams, and their strength and conditioning coach, a loudmouth tryhard in his mid-30's who "almost tried out for the SEALs," and who convinced that his shot at the UFC is just around the corner.

Obvious choice is obvious.

[Paul1]

If you're concerned about the influences of swimming on recovery, remember that it's a repetitive overhead activity. The stress on the shoulder girdle can be quite high, especially if your technique is poor. Most swimmers have sore shoulders.

Something like the prowler is less of a problem in that regard.

I was a distance freestyler when I swam competitively and this was an issue. But now I do a LOT more backstroke and between that and pressing the repetitive injuries have totally disappeared. Like night and day - when I decided to mix in other strokes bam, shoulder problems gone.

Water polo was a million times harder on my shoulders than swim team.

[JDelage]

So I went swimming last Wednesday. I swam 1,000 yrds slow pace, and then tried to do some sprints. I was doing a 25 yrd sprint followed by a 1mn40 recovery, times 7. In my case, I wasn't able to get to the same level of perceived exhaustion that I get doing a 20 s row / 1mn40 rest HIIT on the rower. I just couldn't push myself hard enough. My sprints took 16 s., down to 17 s. at the end, so obviously they were shorter than the rowing workouts. Maybe I will try to do sprints on the minute. I don't think I could sprint for 50 yards with the right level of intensity.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

JDelage,

What you're experiencing is pretty typical in my experience. I think maybe some of my opinions were either poorly conveyed by my prose OR were misunderstood. To clarify, I do not think that most untrained swimmers (those who have lots of practice being efficient with their stroke technique) can generate a true "sprint" in the water. In other words, if your technique isn't very good you cannot coordinate your body to swim "hard" enough to generate a similar level of intensity- though it will NEVER approach the intensity of a land workout with a lesser skilled movement due to force production, velocity, and the lower technical requirements. Given that you cannot push the intensity appropriately AND the following two findings: 1) even if you can't push the intensity as a novice swimmer, you cant thrash about and tire yourself out/burn ATP/f*ck up your training for the next few days; and 2) adaptations garnered from swimming tend to be inhibitory to strength/hypertrophy/power, etc. you can see why it is not my preferred methodology.