Question about the obese novice vs the average novice

[rmahmad]

I just had a question about the way muscle is built in these two different type of people. Lets say that average is 25% bf (or is this over weight?). Anyways, for the obese intermediate they are supposed to lose weight, but at the same time make gains. Whereas the average novice is expected to gain weight to progress in their lifts.

Assuming that both people have the same amount of LBM, how does this work out? I assume its due to the obese person using their extra fat for energy etc, but the person who is average/overweight could too right? Just not to the same extent.

I dont know, it was just a thought, and I was wondering if you could explain the metabolic process that is going on there.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

How does what, exactly, workout?

[rmahmad]

How does what, exactly, workout?

Sorry I didnt make it clear. I guess my question is this: How does the obese novice gain muscle while losing his weight? Don't you have to be in a caloric surplus to gain muscle. I didnt think that excess fat could turn into muscle?

Sorry if this is beyond the scope of this forum.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

If a person is untrained enough and obese enough, he or she can add skeletal muscle whilst losing body fat for a period of time. In either caloric surplus or deficit, the accrual of skeletal muscle is painfully slow. When in a caloric deficit, the rate of protein breakdown tends to be at such a rate that precludes gaining muscle provided someone is at least somewhat trained.

[rmahmad]

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification!

[vanslix]

If a person is untrained enough and obese enough, he or she can add skeletal muscle whilst losing body fat for a period of time. In either caloric surplus or deficit, the accrual of skeletal muscle is painfully slow. When in a caloric deficit, the rate of protein breakdown tends to be at such a rate that precludes gaining muscle provided someone is at least somewhat trained.

This does not bode well for my goal in waist reduction. Time to up the HIIT from 5 cycles to 7-8, I suppose.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

This does not bode well for my goal in waist reduction. Time to up the HIIT from 5 cycles to 7-8, I suppose.

Perhaps one of the more interesting aspects of HIIT as compared to traditional cardio is that the added volume of training can actually blunt muscle protein breakdown + stimulate muscle protein synthesis. It has been shown to be effective for hypertrophy whilst in a caloric surplus, though the data is universally lacking for those "dieting".

[vanslix]

Perhaps one of the more interesting aspects of HIIT as compared to traditional cardio is that the added volume of training can actually blunt muscle protein breakdown + stimulate muscle protein synthesis. It has been shown to be effective for hypertrophy whilst in a caloric surplus, though the data is universally lacking for those "dieting".

We'll see how the experiment goes. I figured HIIT was the most logical guess as far as variables to alter. I've more or less figured out where my isocaloric point is and it doesn't give me much room to play with while lifting. Decreasing calories would hasten the weight loss but it will definitely hasten muscle loss, too. No bueno. I just reset my programming with Andy's help after a major deload due to a bad back (re)tweak. Then I REALLY ballooned up with all the residency interviews. Too much free, good food. And then while traveling I ate like shit of course. I decided to start keeping a log to keep me on track. N of only 1 but the most important N there is.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Yea I'm not so sure if muscle loss is hastened with calorie decrease. LBM definitely goes down immediately, but as far as actual skeletal muscle protein I think there's more to the story-namely what kind of training is happening at the same time. The data suggests-to me at least- that heavy loading (as a function of tonnage) during dietary restriction tends to spare most of the skeletal muscle provided protein levels are in check. There's obviously other variables to consider when discussing this complex topic- but for the record I do think more HIIT is a better move for a non competitor than less cals, initially.

[vanslix]

Yea I'm not so sure if muscle loss is hastened with calorie decrease. LBM definitely goes down immediately, but as far as actual skeletal muscle protein I think there's more to the story-namely what kind of training is happening at the same time. The data suggests-to me at least- that heavy loading (as a function of tonnage) during dietary restriction tends to spare most of the skeletal muscle provided protein levels are in check. There's obviously other variables to consider when discussing this complex topic- but for the record I do think more HIIT is a better move for a non competitor than less cals, initially.

During my days of pharma research, it was damn near impossible to have weight loss without muscle loss whether it be caloric restriction or pharmacological means. Of course, we weren't researching training. We were more concerned with reductions in A1c, etc which did occur. I suspect from the scant literature available, that maintaining a high protein diet also helps to minimize skeletal muscle loss while losing fat.