why more than 5 reps with chin-ups? and are pull-ups necessary?

[Lu36]

Hi Mark!

Last month I started on your program for beginners at page 300-1 of SS.
Since I am fit (36 y.o, 64 kg, 7-8 % body fat) and I already owned a dips belt, I started right away with weighted chin-ups in sets of 5 (after a BW warm-up set of 3). That's hard but I am highly motivated and I progressed quickly up to 5x3 with +12,5 kg!

Now I received the second book of yours (PPST), where the program includes pull-ups too;
-why need I alternate pull-ups to chin-up?

The second book also describes alternating weighted sets of 5 with 12+ sets at bodyweight in chin-ups (and pull-ups);
-why do you prescribe sets of more than 5 repetitions (up to 15!) for pulls-up only?

Thanks for your time
Lu

[Mark Rippetoe]

You don't need to alternate pullups and chinups if you don't want to. I don't do any pullups because I'm a gym owner and I'm required by law to have massive arms.

The second book also describes alternating weighted sets of 5 with 12+ sets at bodyweight in chin-ups (and pull-ups);
-why do you prescribe sets of more than 5 repetitions (up to 15!) for pulls-up

You lost me here.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Lu,

Alternating heavy sets of weighted pull ups will help to drive up the number of reps you can do unweighted. This would be for someone who is looking to train in a higher rep range for hypertrophy. I do this very thing with my own pull ups and it works.

[Lu36]

You don't need to alternate pullups and chinups if you don't want to. I don't do any pullups because I'm a gym owner and I'm required by law to have massive arms.

would you mind explaining briefly the benefits from doing both pullups and chinups?
(sarcasm does not help)

You lost me here.

[Mark wrote in PPST, page 155:]
<<...unweighted chin-ups or pull-ups are done to failure for 3 sets unless the trainee can complete more than 15 [enphasis added] reps per set (unlikely for a rank novice), in which case weight is added...>>

WHY SO MANY??

Lu,

Alternating heavy sets of weighted pull ups will help to drive up the number of reps you can do unweighted. This would be for someone who is looking to train in a higher rep range for hypertrophy. I do this very thing with my own pull ups and it works.

Thanks for answering my question.
If I understood it correctly, you confirmed that a higher rep range is better for stimulating hypertrophy with the pull ups. Does that apply also to other exercises?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think you are trying to program chinups/pullups like the barbell exercises, and we don't use them the same way or for the same reasons. They don't lend themselves to a linear increase with small incremental jumps because they are hard for most novices to do even for a very few reps at bodyweight. Since they are an assistance exercise, it just makes sense to work them up to higher reps until they can be effectively trained with added weight at lower reps.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Lu,
Yes, generally a higher rep range 10-15 will do a good job of stimulating hypertrophy. But so do lower rep sets with heavier weights. Go read the section about sarcoplasmic vs myofibrillar hypertrophy in PP, and you will get an idea about what rep ranges are best for what goals. I know a rock climber who routinely does sets of 20 or more pull ups and has a big back. I also know a guy who routinely does pull ups for sets of 3 with a 100 lb dumbell hanging from his waist. He also has a big back. Guess what: its not too hard for the guy who pulls with the 100 lb db to bust out a set of twenty with his bodyweight. Interestingly enough, the inverse is not true. Think about this when you are putting together your program.

[Lu36]

I think you are trying to program chinups/pullups like the barbell exercises, and we don't use them the same way or for the same reasons. They don't lend themselves to a linear increase with small incremental jumps because they are hard for most novices to do even for a very few reps at bodyweight. Since they are an assistance exercise, it just makes sense to work them up to higher reps until they can be effectively trained with added weight at lower reps.

Yes, I had actually thought, from the explanation in your book SS, that 5 reps with increasing load was the optimal choice for _all_ strength training exercises.
(I had guessed that the recommendation to start without weight was due to the fact that most people would not be able to start with weighted chin-ups right away, besides that not everybody has a dips belt.)
Thanks for clarifying that.

[Lu36]

Hi KSC

I re-checked the explanation in the book (at page 87), thanks.
If I understood you correctly, you alternate low and high reps to stimulate both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, because this way you increase both strength and volume of your lats.
-Does that makes strength increase faster than training low reps alone? (I'm not sure if I want mass gains from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, if I can choose)
-Can you adopt this strategy with back extensions and abdominals too?


In case you want to know, today I tested for the first time how many full-range unweighed chin-ups I can perform (compared to 5x at +12,5kg +64kg BW): although they were much easier than weighed, after 10 my arms won't move any more. But I did not feel tired. (Lactic acid or muscle fatigue?)

Afterwards I tried full-range BW pull-ups: I could do 6, but it didn't feel that hard either.

I also found an answer to my own question about the added advantage of the pull-ups: they work nicely the brachialis (like in a reverse curls).

I wish you all a great day!
Lu

[Lu36]

Little update:
I've trained without added weight the last few times, and now I can already do 11 pull-ups and 14 chin-ups. (And I found pull-ups fun actually!)
(in two different training days, in the first set after after a warmup set of 3 reps, then 3 sets to failure).
I noticed that I can do more of them fast than slowly

[zephed56]

I think that with the assistance exercises, it is much harder to keep a consistent set/rep scheme every workout because it is not as easy to progressively load the movement like barbell exercises. So that may be one reason that you work your reps up into a higher rep range and THEN start adding weight, rinse & repeat. That is a more practical progressive overload method than simply adding weight each time. Just my thoughts.