Relationship between weightlifting/strength training and flexibility

[Pnigro]

Hi coach!

I've heard you say, that squatting itself will improve flexibility. I suppose overall weightlifting, done with a proper ROM, will improve flexibility.

I was having a discussion with a karate instructor the other day. She was 100% convinced that weights were counterproductive to flexibility. She said that if I ever wanted to have extreme flexibility in my legs and kick high in the air and everything, I had to stop doing weights.

It didn't make sense to me. She said stuff like "strength training shorten your muscles" or "the more muscle mass you have, the more tension on your tendons", etc.

I told her that gymnastics and Jean Claude Van Damme and many others are very muscular and have a lot of flexibility. She told me that they didn't train with weights, that they have a different kind of training with a lot of stretching.

She also gave me some analogies on how it is harder to straighten 10 rubber bands together than 3 rubber bands.

Anyways, I am clueless on all this, because I don't really know how flexibility works and how it is related to muscle mass and hypertrophy. Care to enlighten me?

Is it possible to achieve a martial art/gymnastic flexibility by stretching everyday along with weightlifting?

I know this sounds kind of silly but she sounded very convinced.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'll open this to the forum.

[JasonM]

You're Karate instructor must have never heard of Bruce Lee.

Gearing his training for function, Lee's bodybuilding routine incorporated the three core tenets of total fitness- stretching for flexibility, weight training for strength and cardiovascular activity for his respiratory system -- the original cross-trainer!

Bruce Lee's "Lethal Physique" Bodybuilding Program
(performed on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays)

Exercise Sets Repetitions
Clean & Press 2 8
Squats 2 12
Pullovers 2 8
Bench Presses 2 6
Good Mornings 2 8
Barbell Curls 2 8

http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html

[XTrainer]

I'm a martial artist, and no doubt about it whatsoever, strength training has made me MORE flexible. Your instructor is just perpetuating a myth believed by a lot of people who have never strength trained seriously themselves.

[stouliom]

I told her that gymnastics and Jean Claude Van Damme and many others are very muscular and have a lot of flexibility. She told me that they didn't train with weights, that they have a different kind of training with a lot of stretching.

"I train every day, still working on my overall conditioning, cardio, weights, and stretching. I train at least an hour a day in this type of training. But just before I go into a film, I up this time to about two or three hours a day, so I peak just as I am about to shoot the film." -- Jean Claude van Damme (http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=320)

This alone should sound the alarm bells. Maybe your instructor is willing to say anything to back up her claims, irrelevant of truthfulness, and as such cannot be trusted to tell the truth. (This sounds harsh, I know, but many people seem to be guilty of it, so it's nothing personal against her ).

I know this sounds kind of silly but she sounded very convinced.

People often sound very convinced of things they don't know about, for reasons unknown to me (though I suspect it's ego).

I suspect this comes under 'Silly Bullshit'.

I don't know the answer, but I'd guess you can still be as flexible as you need. Strength training will give you flexibility in the ROM of the exercise, but I can't see how it'd effect the extreme ranges (which is presumably what you need for high kicks?). In strong knees and hips and balanced relevant muscles (i.e. the quads not being able to overpower the hamstring), surely the tension issue is nothing.

For fighting, I imagine the consequences of strength training (strength, balance under a large force (or acceleration, in the case of fighting), bone density improvements, greater mass) are very beneficial.

[rhymer]

If you look around the internets for Bruce Lee's routine, you'll find he ran 5 miles a day (ugh), did tons of obsessive ab work and bodyweight conditioning work (ugh) and lifted weights as follows:

clean and presses 2 x 8
squats 2 x 12
barbell pullovers 2 x 8
bench presses 2 x 6
good mornings 2 x 8
barbell curls 2 x 8

Setting aside the set/rep, the beach work with pullovers and curls, and the good mornings instead of a heavy pull from the floor, look familiar?

Jet Li is basically a gymnast, sure. But I bet he still lifts weights.

People say stuff that's nonsense all the time, and there is a certain fraction of the female population that thinks weightlifting is essentially evil. But she may still have something to teach you that's worth while. Learn from her what's useful to you and move on.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Couple of points:

1) It may be easier to stretch 3 rubber bands than 10, its also easier to break 3 rubber bands than 10.

2) Go watch the olympics. Watch the depth on the clean and snatch of some of the big heavy weights. I'd say they are made of like 20 rubber bands.

3) Why do you care what a Karate instructor has to say about lifting?

4) Wny do you need to be hyper flexible anyways? If you are concerned about lifting, then you need to be flexible enough to hit your lifts with the proper mechanics and that is about it. I guess it would be cool to be able to do the splits between two chairs or something, but it isn't necessary for lifting.

5) lots of people are convinced of lots of stupid things. I have a Pilates instructor a few doors down from my gym who is convinced that Pilates is the only system you need to develop "fitness". The real test though as i call it is the "can you do what I can do test?" In almost any physical challenge my top Crossfitters will consistently out perform her top Pilates people, except for maybe the sit and reach.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I'm not trainer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. From what I read, the rubber band analogy is completely off base. It's not that your muscles are physically tight, well at least after a warm up, it's that the brain won't let your muscle relax beyond a certian point to reduce injuries. It's the same response mechanism that won't let you deadlift if your grip is weak or you are standing on a pillow or running shoes. The CNS doesn't want you limbs going into a place the CNS isn't sure they will be stable.

There is also a difference between active and passive flexiblity. Active flexibility being the range of motion a limb can move itself through, i.e. how much of a split you can get into if you raise your legs while hanging. Passive flexiblity is how far a limb can move under external forces, i.e. how deep of a split you can get into if you are on the floor. Though they are related, active flexiblity is gained by strengthing muscle through a full range of motion, where as passive is gained by stretching. Improving one will improve the other, but to a lesser degree.

You should only be as flexible as you need to be. Take Bill "SUper Foot" Wallace, an incredible kick boxer and an annoucer at the first UFC event in 93. He had incredibly fast feet and was very flexible. He had worked his split to greater than 180 degrees, his feet were above his hips. He noticed his kicks had slowed, since he lost some of the snap or stretch reflex. THe same works for a squat. If you are trying to lift really heavy weights, having the flexiblity to get to just above the bottom position is beneficial since the wieght will push you that last inch, and the tightness in the muscle will help you bounce out of the hole.

Plus, why do you want to high kick? Ribs are as high as I'll kick, and I can fold a heavy bag with a head high kick. High kicks are too easy to dodge and too difficult to recover from a miss.

[johnst_nhb]

Hi coach!

I've heard you say, that squatting itself will improve flexibility. I suppose overall weightlifting, done with a proper ROM, will improve flexibility.

I was having a discussion with a karate instructor the other day. She was 100% convinced that weights were counterproductive to flexibility. She said that if I ever wanted to have extreme flexibility in my legs and kick high in the air and everything, I had to stop doing weights.

It didn't make sense to me. She said stuff like "strength training shorten your muscles" or "the more muscle mass you have, the more tension on your tendons", etc.

I told her that gymnastics and Jean Claude Van Damme and many others are very muscular and have a lot of flexibility. She told me that they didn't train with weights, that they have a different kind of training with a lot of stretching.

She also gave me some analogies on how it is harder to straighten 10 rubber bands together than 3 rubber bands.

Anyways, I am clueless on all this, because I don't really know how flexibility works and how it is related to muscle mass and hypertrophy. Care to enlighten me?

Is it possible to achieve a martial art/gymnastic flexibility by stretching everyday along with weightlifting?

I know this sounds kind of silly but she sounded very convinced.

I am 6 ft 250#. Been practicing and teaching karate for almost 30 years. I love powerlifting, squat all the time, decent numbers for a 45 year old.

I can do a full split and kick to the head quite easily-at age 45.

Talk to a new karate teacher. 'nuff said.

[sergeant_81]

I rank karate instructors right up there with personal trainers. Karate itself...ok, I'll shut up.

As far as the question...I'm beginning to move into the intermediate level of strength training (judging from the resets I'm experiencing right now), and I can kick well over my head.

I am NOT an MMA fan and don't care for that sport, but I'm pretty sure those guys engage in heavy weight training, and they're probably one heck of a lot more flexible than your standard-issue karate geek.